5* Vettings

Kat

Kat

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What are the chances of a horse failing a 5* vetting and then the same horse passing a few weeks later??

I had a potential new horse vetted a couple of weeks ago and much to everyone's surprise she failed on the flexions. Owner had no clue anything was amiss and I'd had my instructor look her over beforehand and she thought she was sound.

It has been suggested that we get her vetted again as she is just what we want and an experienced horse person has looked her over recently and couldn't see any sign of lameness.

I was there for the vetting and the positive flexion was noticeable to me.
 
Friend had a vetting a couple of weeks ago and the horse failed the flexion test.

The vet suggested that if we were to buy her anyway, it would be worth having her vetted again in a couple of months, as if she passed the flexion test the vet could over-ride the first vetting with a view to getting any exclusions lifted on her insurance policy.

This horse had seemed sound to me on the first viewing, but the lamenes was noticeable on the flexion test (not when ridden). Vet said sometimes they can be a little stiff - may have had a knock in the field, slipped and pulled a muscle slightly - and will fail a flexion test one day but not the next.
 
I'd be inclined to have it re-vetted only if you had it on trial and were sure that it hadn't been given any "supplements". If the Insurers know that it failed a flexion test (and it's on the records) it will probably keep the exclusions for at least a year.
 
The owner seemed genuinely surprised that she failed the flexions. The vet asked whether she had had any slips or knocks and they said no.

The horse is 7 and the vet thought that it was the sort of result she would expect from a much older horse.

We would use a different vet and haven't gone down the route of any insurance yet so presumably if we got a passed 5* certificate we could get her insured on the basis of that.
 
what 10th was it lame if only a small percentage have re-vetted i have known horses to be a little stiff have knocked themselves then pass second time around x
 
The vet didn't give a figure for lameness, just said she thought there was a very mild positive on the right hind that wouldn't have concerned her normally and a strong positive on the left.

I couldn't see anything at all on the right but on the left it was obvious to me that she wasn't sound.

Really quite confused as we were soooo gutted when she failed and have really struggled to find the enthusiasm to look at anything else since as it feels like we have had such bad luck in our search! But we also don't want to buy ourselves an expensive problem, we want a horse to share (my husband and I) that is suitable for all RC activities and hunting with maybe some affililiated competition in future.
 
My friend had a horse she was selling fail a vetting. She'd bought the horse 3 years previously, which had passed the vetting then. Had not had any problems since.

She was so worried she had her vet out within an hour. The vet did every test under the sun and couldn't MAKE the horse go lame! Over flexed in, everything. His verdict was the vet held the leg in the wrong position, which would make just about any horse lame.

Such a shame. Sale fell through because buyers husband wouldn't revet the horse.
 
Did your vet continue with the rest of the vetting?

I had one vetting that failed the flexion test quite noticeably on one hind leg, and my vet said it was not worth continuing as a vetting requires the horse to work very hard, and so it wasn't a fair ask of the mare if she was lame on one leg. BUT, she said it might be worth coming back and recommencing the vetting if the horse was sound in a weeks time, as she thinks people should never write a horse off on the basis on one failed flexion.

Also, have the owners done any further investigation into the horse's lameness?
 
It can depend on the way, length of time, and angle of holding the leg for the flexions. Quite honestly, some vets can make any horse go lame!
 
No the vet didn't continue, she explained the results and on the basis of what she said we decided to not take things further.

She wasn't lame before the flexion.

The vet basically said that it could be the begining of something degenerative in the hock like spavins or arthritis and whilst she might remain sound for years there is a chance that she starts to struggle much sooner than that, she basically said that you don't want to buy a problem and horses are expensive to keep at the best of times. She also said it would probably cause problems if we needed to sell her on.

On that basis we decided to leave it there and the vet only charged us for half of the vetting.

It has only been since someone else (not a vet but an experienced horse person) looked at her and could find nothing wrong that it was suggested maybe we should get a second opinion.
 
Halfstep said:
It can depend on the way, length of time, and angle of holding the leg for the flexions. Quite honestly, some vets can make any horse go lame!
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The vet timed herself holding the leg up. It was the last leg she tested that was problematic, the vet came from a respected practice that was recommended to us but the individual vet was unknown to us beforehand.
 
Puppy said:
Also, have the owners done any further investigation into the horse's lameness?
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Not as far as I know, they asked the vet what they thought they should do and the vet said that they would need to do a full work up to find the cause of the problem if they wanted to go down that route.

I suspect that as she hasn't been lame when ridden they probably haven't taken things any further.

This was not an expensive horse.
 
You could get an different vet out. Get them to start with flexion tests before they do anything else. Then if it passes continue. If it fails, then you will only have to pay for a lameness investigation.

I did this when I looked at a horse with bad cracks in it's feet. Vet looked at feet and trotted it up. Told me it was a really bad idea, so I left it there. Only cost £60.
 
Different vet was what my instructor suggested. She also suggested asking the seller whether they would pay for it so we don't loose anymore money. Whether the seller agrees to that I guess depends upon how keen they are to sell.

Starting with the flexions is a good idea though - will consider that!
 
Katt said:
No the vet didn't continue, she explained the results and on the basis of what she said we decided to not take things further.

She wasn't lame before the flexion.

The vet basically said that it could be the begining of something degenerative in the hock like spavins or arthritis and whilst she might remain sound for years there is a chance that she starts to struggle much sooner than that, she basically said that you don't want to buy a problem and horses are expensive to keep at the best of times. She also said it would probably cause problems if we needed to sell her on.

On that basis we decided to leave it there and the vet only charged us for half of the vetting.

It has only been since someone else (not a vet but an experienced horse person) looked at her and could find nothing wrong that it was suggested maybe we should get a second opinion.
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I guess it depends how much you like the horse. In your situation, and still keen, I would speak to the buyers and ask them how the horse is now? Whether she has since been in work/shown any lameness/seen their vet since she failed the flexion tests. If their answers indicate the horse is fine, then I would get your OWN vet to come back and look at her for a vetting, You really want someone you can 100% trust for a vetting, IMO. If the horse flies the vetting then go ahead and buy. Or if there is still a bit of doubt, then Xray. :) Good luck :)
 
I understand (second hand info) that she has been fine since and was fine when trotted up by this "experienced horseperson" (friend of a friend who put us onto the horse in the first place but who has no personal interest in the sale).

Unfortunately I don't have my own vet who I trust as I'm a first time buyer so I'm reliant upon other people's recommendations. We went on recommendation toothe practice we used, it is the practice my isntructor uses for her horses but a different individual vet as hers wasn't available for ages. So I'd be asking around for recommendations I think.

Thanks for all the advice folks, and keep it coming!
 
Did the horse have any knocks on its legs? like tiny pieces of missing hair? had it been out in the field?

When I was working for an ISH trainer we produced a 3yo for loose jumping sales and qualified for the elite sales then the owner decided to take her home for the 2 weeks till the sale to reduce livery fee. She had been in for the last 3 months being trained and he turned her out. 2 weeks later she comes back after hooning round the fields with a tiny ding on one fetlock, tiny piece of hair missing. Came up lame on flexions and missed the sale, a week later she was sound again even on flexions. We were hopping.

Anyway, point of the essay the tinyest pull or ding can make a horse lame on flexions so it may well be worth giving it a week or two then repeating.
 
She was brought straight in out of the field for the vet.

I didn't look at her legs myself before the vetting so can't comment upon whether there might have been any evidence of a knock.

Sounds like it is worth looking into re-vetting her though.
 
Katt said:
I understand (second hand info) that she has been fine since and was fine when trotted up by this "experienced horseperson" (friend of a friend who put us onto the horse in the first place but who has no personal interest in the sale).
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Have you spoken to the sellers directly since the failed vetting? If, as you say, they were as surprised as you were when the horse failed, they may have since called their own vet to get to the bottom of things.

I would phone them for a chat. Be very honest and say you have struggled to find anything you like as much, may still be interested in a sale, but for obvious reasons you don't want to take a massive gamble... Perhaps with a gentle nudge they will volunteer to get their vet to make further investigations? Maybe tell them if their own vet rules it sound after a flexion test, then you will give it the benefit of the doubt as a badly timed bump and bring your own vet to try again.... Although I guess this plan also depends how honest you think the sellers are...?


Unfortunately I don't have my own vet who I trust as I'm a first time buyer so I'm reliant upon other people's recommendations. We went on recommendation toothe practice we used, it is the practice my isntructor uses for her horses but a different individual vet as hers wasn't available for ages. So I'd be asking around for recommendations I think.

Thanks for all the advice folks, and keep it coming!
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That practice may now not be prepared to give a clean vetting for the horse once one of their vets has failed it, so you will probably have to find someone else. Definitely go by recommendation though, of the individual as much as the practice :)

Of course, you say the horse is not a huge amount of money, I don't want to guess at what figure that mean, but the sellers *may* not want all this trouble and just be hoping the next interested person doesn't vet, if it's a cheapy...?? :o In which case you've got away with a lot of trouble!

Good luck! x
 
I think its really hard to know what the flexion tests mean without doing a load of xrays etc....A friend of mine has bought a horse, which she had vetted, that showed 'slight positive reaction to flexion tests in both front limbs' however it was 'no more than was expected in a horse of that age' (horse is 12 or 13)....however, the horse has now been diagnosed with arthritis of the elbow......
 
When I got my pony vetted as a 5 year old he had a kick injury and he still passed the flexion test (he was blood tested as well to make sure he was not doped!).

I would take the vets advice especially as a first time horse buyer and also if you are wanting to compete or do quite hard work with your new horse. There are so many things that can go wrong with horses and if you have never owned one before then you are better off at least starting with something that you know has easily passed the vetting. I know of two young horses under the age of 8 with arthritis so it is not unheard of in younger horses.

If the horse seems like a really good bargain the owner may not be as honest as they seem - some dishonest people are still really friendly and can appear nice!
 
Puppy said:
Have you spoken to the sellers directly since the failed vetting? If, as you say, they were as surprised as you were when the horse failed, they may have since called their own vet to get to the bottom of things.

I would phone them for a chat. Be very honest and say you have struggled to find anything you like as much, may still be interested in a sale, but for obvious reasons you don't want to take a massive gamble... Perhaps with a gentle nudge they will volunteer to get their vet to make further investigations? Maybe tell them if their own vet rules it sound after a flexion test, then you will give it the benefit of the doubt as a badly timed bump and bring your own vet to try again.... Although I guess this plan also depends how honest you think the sellers are...?




That practice may now not be prepared to give a clean vetting for the horse once one of their vets has failed it, so you will probably have to find someone else. Definitely go by recommendation though, of the individual as much as the practice :)

Of course, you say the horse is not a huge amount of money, I don't want to guess at what figure that mean, but the sellers *may* not want all this trouble and just be hoping the next interested person doesn't vet, if it's a cheapy...?? :o In which case you've got away with a lot of trouble!

Good luck! x
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I'd go to a completely different practice if we go down the route of re-vetting. Think I'll call her for a chat today.

The price is not mega cheap, and is pretty fair for a horse of her type. I think that they would struggle to find someone to buy her without a vetting at the price she is. But we aren't talking big money for a competition horse.
 
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