5yo warmblood Gelding - Training tips please :)

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PrinceDutch

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Hi All

I am new to H&H Forum, but have read some interesting posts so thought i would get your views on my new baby

Recently bought a 5 yo gelding from my trainer, he's a very good boy in almost everything, however he can throw his toys out the pram when being ridden.

When i first get on he feels like hes a coiled spring which is fine, as he soon settles down when we get going, however previously he has reared a couple of times, not too big but enough to knock my confidence a little, when i have lessons i am more bold and brave to deal with these situations however when i'm on my own i back off a little so he kind of wins and now knows how to push my buttons when he doesn't want to do something.

I don't want this to become a huge problem, so i had a week of intensive training to build both of our confidence which worked well, however last night i was almost finished just cooling him down and another horse left the arena, he napped, darted to the side and went to follow, i managed to keep him calm and continue to walk around the arena for 10 more mins as i don't want him to think he can finish when he wants, the bit which makes me feel uneasy is, he throws his head up and down huffing and puffing as part of his tantrum and threatens to rear/bronc at this point i back off and just try to keep him calm, is this the correct thing to do? My trainer thinks i was right as hes only 5 and if it gets confrontational it could make the situation worse, i must point out he's only been under saddle 4 months, so he's a late starter

Any tips, advise is welcome TIA
 
It sounds like he is a bit tricky so its hard to answer this - I'd first of all be interested as to why he was broken at 5 (that is late especially if you are talking about a purpose bred dressage WB), that would be a red flag to me. More knowledge on his past might help shed some light on some of these behaviours as well, plus who broke him and how he was during that process. I'd also be looking at him health wise - have you had someone do his back, teeth, feet, general once over etc....did you have him vetted pre-purchase?

Yes some of it may be baby behaviour, but if broken properly broncing and rearing would never come into it. Yes the occasional spook or nap (the nap when the other horse left can be forgiven as this is typical baby behaviour) but not rearing and broncing, that normally indicates health issues or some real problems during breaking.

You are now in a horrible situation where you are in no mans land - he needs putting in his place, showing that you are boss hence pushing on and riding through it would probably work - however having a fight about it with a young horse is not great and can do more harm than good, and chances are if he's gotten away with it before he will fight harder if you confront him and you may well get hurt.

Sorry but I'm not sure what to suggest - I rode a horse who had issues from his past and displayed many of the behaviours you talk about, we sorted out his health problems but behaviourally we couldnt ever get past it because ultimately he was just unpredictable. I got him to a point where he could be going sweetly most of the time but there was always that risk he could just drop his shoulder or do a massive spook at any given time and I'd be on the floor. He went back to his breeder in the end and she still struggles with him - no amount of patience, money and good training could actually fix the damage done by this one previous owner.

Have you had a professional ride him and is he any different? What are you asking him to do that he reacts badly to? Can it be anything at all or are there particular movements/paces he reacts worse to? I rode another problem horse (they are my speciality!) and she was far worse in her behaviour on a circle, again turned out to be health related.

What has your trainer said about him and why did she sell you a problem horse? Why did you choose to buy something so quirky? How experienced are you with quirky horses?

Finally to answer your specific question about did you do the right thing in backing off to keep him calm when the other horse left - yes that is the right thing to do. There is no point in pushing him into trot or anything like that when you were cooling him down, but equally you should never let him follow the other horse and get his own way. You need to re-focus his attention back on you, even if you are cooling down. Take up a bit more of a contact, put him onto a circle or do an exercise called travelling squares. With the one that I rode who hated it when a horse left the menage, travelling squares were my best friend - do a square in the corner of the menage, then move it up slightly and keep repeating it in various locations around the menage, on both sides. Doing so many turns (corners) means they have to engage their brain and cant spend too much time thinking where the other horse has gone. Circles also work but keep moving them around the menage, figures of 8 and serpentines are also good - anything that keeps the horse moving in different directions, bending and changing direction all the time gives them more to think about instead of just going round and round. Flexions of the neck to the left and right again get the focus back on you, and if he can manage it a little leg yield in walk is also a good way of getting his attention back.

With horses like this your biggest challenge is going to be getting the focus on you, so you need to keep movements frequent and change the direction a lot. Staying on a circle or going large is about the worst thing you can do. Place poles at random places around the menage so you can walk over them as another bit of interest for the horse, poles on a circle are great (at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions) and do transitions between walk and trot in-between each pole. They come up really quick so you have to be on the ball as does the horse - no time for thinking about what other horses are doing or having a tantrum.

There are schooling exercises books (I think there is one called 101 schooling exercises), something like that will help give you more ideas as you are really going to have to keep this horse busy. You cant just have a nice relaxing walk about on horses like this, or a nice stretchy trot around the outside of the school - you need to be doing various movements and transitions every few seconds. All whilst working on relaxation and getting him to soften his neck.....these are tricky horses and chances are he may never change as he was broken so late he is likely to lack confidence and that could stay with him forever.

Make sure you do all the relevant health checks and try and find out more about his past too.....something doesnt sound quite right to me in this case. I'd understand it for a horse that was neglected/abused/has health problems. But not for a purpose bred dressage WB - it sounds to me like something went wrong either before he was broken or during the breaking process and now he has some serious issues.
 
Have you checked his saddle fit. I know it seems like a pat answer, but if he was fitted when he was broken, after 4 months work he could have changed shape dramatically, and what used to fit now pinches.
 
Some good points up there... my mare has not long been under saddle and we don't do much schooling as it's her first year. I just go on lots of hacks to build strength and stamina and get her used to life out and about with a riders weight. We go alone and in company and I wondered if you did the same?

Four months is not long and perhaps he is having some aches and pains? Perhaps he has developed some musculature underneath the saddle and it now needs a bit more space to avoid pinching or pressure points?

I do quite a lot of the schooling exercises on the road, in the fields and on the lanes and cul-de-sacs. You can do loads on a hack :) so perhaps you need to take the gas off a bit as it's very early in his training relatively speaking and sometimes there's just too much to take in. If he had been backed at 3/4 he would probably have had some time out hacking which is what all babies should be doing in their first year with little interludes in the school...

I hope you manage to chill him out a bit and enjoy the rest of the summer together without too much more issues.
 
Keep him busy and try to ride him through his tantrums quietly but efficentley. A young horse will love any reaction, good or bad, so the best thing to do is just ride him through and keep him busy. Hopefully he will soon get bored of not getting a reaction!
 
Yep i do loads of hacking with him, while the evenings are lighter he's hacked 3 times a week and schooled twice, i don't want to overload him with schooling as this is all new to him, he's an absolute angel out hacking we go alone or in company and tbh he's the brave one which will walk past anything when the others refuse to go past the spooky object, i have no problem keeping his attention in walk out hacking, it just seems to be when walking in the arena, he's even good as gold to go for a canter through the fields. So the things that should be scary for him don't seem to phase him but a simple task like walking in the arena can sometimes turn into a big deal.

Any tips for keeping his mind occupied and busy in walk?
 
PrinceDutch said:
Yep i do loads of hacking with him, while the evenings are lighter he's hacked 3 times a week and schooled twice, i don't want to overload him with schooling as this is all new to him, he's an absolute angel out hacking we go alone or in company and tbh he's the brave one which will walk past anything when the others refuse to go past the spooky object, i have no problem keeping his attention in walk out hacking, it just seems to be when walking in the arena, he's even good as gold to go for a canter through the fields. So the things that should be scary for him don't seem to phase him but a simple task like walking in the arena can sometimes turn into a big deal.

Any tips for keeping his mind occupied and busy in walk?
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Circles, serpenties,stopping-starting. Collected, normal, medium walk? Walking over poles?

I to own a horse with a 'busy' mind, so I feel your pain!
 
I keep my other horses on my trainers yard so i was able to watch his progress before buying him, he was good as gold when broken, sorry should have said he was lightly backed in Holland at 4 then when he came over to the uk he did nothing until my trainer bought him rising 5 so effectively he's only started to work properly recently. I have no idea how the dutch break in horses could be a lot different to the way we do it, so could have a baring on his behaviour.

All checks done, saddle, physio, teeth etc the first week i bought him, no problems found, he passed 5 stage vetting with x-rays so i don't think this is a health issue more of baby behaviour and more that i need to grow a pair and not let him get away with it without it becoming confrontational. sorry should have said the problem only arises in walk. Trot and canter hes perfect, but when in walk this is when he is easily distracted, will give the travelling squares ago that sounds like a useful exercise, lateral work he finds easy, he can leg yield and should in although i haven't done too much of this just in my lessons, maybe i should do more shoulder in, in walk?

He's a sandro hit horse, which i know are quirky anyway, had one before in my younger days
 
Thanks ljohnsonsj will use the whole of the arena more so he isn't dull to circles and going large, serpentine's are a good idea and lots of changing the rein across the diagonal, will try that next time i school
 
PrinceDutch said:
Thanks ljohnsonsj will use the whole of the arena more so he isn't dull to circles and going large, serpentine's are a good idea and lots of changing the rein across the diagonal, will try that next time i school
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My Chestnut mare is a selle francias and is very hot and quirky. Our whole schooling sessions make me dizzy trying to fit enough in to keep her brain occupied, otherwise she turns into an idiot horse who spooks and spins at nothing! BUT, I always think the awkward ones have the most to give :)
 
I think you're doing completely the right thing. He sounds like my old horse as a youngster. He used to nap badly in the arena, especially if he saw another horse leaving or another horse in the distance. He would buck on the spot as soon as I applied my leg - he broke two fence posts from kicking out. Funny now but annoying at the time!

I just sat tight & ignored him, and obviously as you said, wouldn't let him leave the area until he was being a good boy.
 
PrinceDutch said:
I keep my other horses on my trainers yard so i was able to watch his progress before buying him, he was good as gold when broken, sorry should have said he was lightly backed in Holland at 4 then when he came over to the uk he did nothing until my trainer bought him rising 5 so effectively he's only started to work properly recently. I have no idea how the dutch break in horses could be a lot different to the way we do it, so could have a baring on his behaviour.

All checks done, saddle, physio, teeth etc the first week i bought him, no problems found, he passed 5 stage vetting with x-rays so i don't think this is a health issue more of baby behaviour and more that i need to grow a pair and not let him get away with it without it becoming confrontational. sorry should have said the problem only arises in walk. Trot and canter hes perfect, but when in walk this is when he is easily distracted, will give the travelling squares ago that sounds like a useful exercise, lateral work he finds easy, he can leg yield and should in although i haven't done too much of this just in my lessons, maybe i should do more shoulder in, in walk?

He's a sandro hit horse, which i know are quirky anyway, had one before in my younger days
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Ah ok that all makes more sense then - its his lack of focus that is your issue if this only happens in walk. In that case (and he's safer in trot and canter) I'd do more of your work in trot - a good few months of walk hacking and then one or two schooling sessions per week in trot/canter with only a teeny tiny bit of walking right at the start and end. Dont worry about what is conventional and wanting to spend equal amounts of time in all paces; as Mr Hester has said many times before work to your horses strengths, with Valegro the canter was the best pace so he spent 70% of the session in canter as this was what he found easiest - watch Carl's Fantastic Elastic masterclass if you can get your hands on it, part 1 has Valegro aged 5 or 6 (cant quite remember!) and its very good to see how he works his young horses. There is another horse before Valegro that was very quirky and he has lots of helpful advice. Whatever you can do to get your horse to relax is more important than feeling you have done everything 'evenly' - relaxation is the most important thing you can aim for in a young horse. So dont worry if you have to trot a lot and hardly ever walk in the school - if you are walking out hacking and not pushing him too hard out on the roads then you wont do any harm. With my silly quirky one I used to ride he was far better in trot so our warm up was predominantly stretchy trot instead of walking.

Might also be worth getting the saddle looked at again just to be sure - once you've had him a few months muscle wise he is going to keep changing shape so just keep on top of the saddle checks and have a few more than you normally would so you can ensure everything is fitting nicely as he changes shape.

Again I'd really recommend the 101 schooling exercises book for lots of ideas to keep him occupied - and as we've said travelling squares, circles of different sizes (leg yield into a smaller circle, leg yield back out to a larger circle is a great exercise), serpentines, figures of 8, leg yield, shoulder in, pole work in walk, poles on circles....I know he's a dressage horse but often a small jump (only needs to be a cross pole) in the arena you can just pop over at random interludes in trot can help them mentally as well. Stops them getting bored and more fun, plus good for their hind leg muscles! Cavaletti are great for strength and again just something else to think about.

Treat him like a toddler that needs entertaining - if he's not spooky about scary looking obstacles etc then it sounds like you could have lots of fun in the school with him, think of as many weird and wonderful activities as you can and just have fun.
 
I think you do have to keep it varied for him while he takes it all in.

How about some turns on the quarters and transitions with work on halting and walking, increasing the halt times in different places. This seems to work with my mare who is very "busy" and work on halting with seat only. Polework in walk is good too. Spirals in walk is always a good one using weight aids and easy for a youngster if done in larger circles to begin with. We had some fun doing lateral work over poles. I made it a game so she had to pass over the pole from one end to the other. They sound very crude work in hand games but really works to supple the shoulders and works the abs. You might just have to do most of your work in trot if that works. I know you're supposed to perfect everyting at walk first but, once you've worked through this then go back and work on walk.

Walk on a long rein practice, trying to get a straight line!!! I only laugh because our straight lines a bit wobbly still!
 
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kc100 said:
Ah ok that all makes more sense then - its his lack of focus that is your issue if this only happens in walk. In that case (and he's safer in trot and canter) I'd do more of your work in trot - a good few months of walk hacking and then one or two schooling sessions per week in trot/canter with only a teeny tiny bit of walking right at the start and end. Dont worry about what is conventional and wanting to spend equal amounts of time in all paces; as Mr Hester has said many times before work to your horses strengths, with Valegro the canter was the best pace so he spent 70% of the session in canter as this was what he found easiest - watch Carl's Fantastic Elastic masterclass if you can get your hands on it, part 1 has Valegro aged 5 or 6 (cant quite remember!) and its very good to see how he works his young horses. There is another horse before Valegro that was very quirky and he has lots of helpful advice. Whatever you can do to get your horse to relax is more important than feeling you have done everything 'evenly' - relaxation is the most important thing you can aim for in a young horse. So dont worry if you have to trot a lot and hardly ever walk in the school - if you are walking out hacking and not pushing him too hard out on the roads then you wont do any harm. With my silly quirky one I used to ride he was far better in trot so our warm up was predominantly stretchy trot instead of walking.

Might also be worth getting the saddle looked at again just to be sure - once you've had him a few months muscle wise he is going to keep changing shape so just keep on top of the saddle checks and have a few more than you normally would so you can ensure everything is fitting nicely as he changes shape.

Again I'd really recommend the 101 schooling exercises book for lots of ideas to keep him occupied - and as we've said travelling squares, circles of different sizes (leg yield into a smaller circle, leg yield back out to a larger circle is a great exercise), serpentines, figures of 8, leg yield, shoulder in, pole work in walk, poles on circles....I know he's a dressage horse but often a small jump (only needs to be a cross pole) in the arena you can just pop over at random interludes in trot can help them mentally as well. Stops them getting bored and more fun, plus good for their hind leg muscles! Cavaletti are great for strength and again just something else to think about.

Treat him like a toddler that needs entertaining - if he's not spooky about scary looking obstacles etc then it sounds like you could have lots of fun in the school with him, think of as many weird and wonderful activities as you can and just have fun.
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just ordered the Carl's Fantastic Elastic masterclass dvd :-)
 
PrinceDutch said:
just ordered the Carl's Fantastic Elastic masterclass dvd :-)
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Enjoy! Its a great watch - the first part brilliant for young horses and getting the basics established, plus you can marvel at just how brilliant Valegro was even back then! The second part lovely to watch and will be more helpful as your horse gets older and more established, when you fancy playing with the more difficult movements.
 
kc100 said:
Enjoy! Its a great watch - the first part brilliant for young horses and getting the basics established, plus you can marvel at just how brilliant Valegro was even back then! The second part lovely to watch and will be more helpful as your horse gets older and more established, when you fancy playing with the more difficult movements.
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Thank you for everyone's comments, it has been extremely useful!! I feel more confident already :-)
 
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