6 months difference!

iknowmyvalue

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Super pleased with how Pepsi is looking at the moment! We are still a good way from where I want him to be, but I’m happy with the direction things are going. He’s much happier in his mind and body in general, and it’s starting to show. One of the biggest differences is that the dip behind his shoulder has filled in and he’s starting to get some muscle there, which is hard to appreciate on the photos.
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iknowmyvalue

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Thank you everyone!

That is very impressive in just 6 months. Can you share some of the exercises you have been doing that has given this great result?
For him it’s just been getting him to relax, work over his back and stretch over the neck. So it’s been a lot of lateral work, poles and hacking for him.

I would definitely have a conversation with your farrier about the negative plantar angles behind.
Yes I know, they’re not ideal… I did mention it to him a few months back but probably worth another conversation. I might grab a couple of foot balance X-rays when I get a chance too.

Farrier not keen on using wedges etc. and to be fair to him the heels are less underrun (hard to see in these photos) but still lower than I’d like. If anyone has any specific options for me to bring up with him I’m open to it! It’s hard because I’m not often there when he gets shod due to work, but I’ve got his number so can give him a ring.
 

LEC

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Yes I know, they’re not ideal… I did mention it to him a few months back but probably worth another conversation. I might grab a couple of foot balance X-rays when I get a chance too.

Farrier not keen on using wedges etc. and to be fair to him the heels are less underrun (hard to see in these photos) but still lower than I’d like. If anyone has any specific options for me to bring up with him I’m open to it! It’s hard because I’m not often there when he gets shod due to work, but I’ve got his number so can give him a ring.
Might interest you - fwcf-thesis
 

TPO

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A ray of sunshine 🌞
If anyone has any specific options for me to bring up
Feel very free to ignore me. This is only my opinion and its not worth much at the best of times!

I've always found his posture concerning but based solely on the two pictures provided I would engage the services of a very good equine vet and my thoughts are that there might be something needing addressed but obviously just a discussion with them initially.

If a plumb line is dropped down through the seat bone and hock the hindlimb in the "after" picture is further in front of it and it appears the the fetlocks have dropped. With the disclaimer that the photos aren't taken at the exact same angle in the exact same location etc

The negative plantar angles are obviously a concern but nothing happens in isolation and I'd want higher up looked at too, be it as a primary or secondary issue.

The forelimb stance, and shoulder, appear to have changed angles too although it's hard to see clearly with the boots on if that's hoof or what related.

Its evident he's recently been clipped and has just finished work but the marks left by the saddlecloth/saddle are deeper over the withers and at the front of the saddle. The highest pressure area is generally where the rider sitsbut shouldn't be where it looks like in the photo. He has clearly filled out behind his wither but I think the saddle may need checked and adjusted to allow for that.

No help with the hooves as I'd pull shoes and xray then "rehab" a horse barefoot to let them, within reason, sort themselves rather than in alignment with how a textbook says that they should look and move.

Iirc, and every chance I don't, HufflyPuff had a similar horse that she massively improved with posture training and rehab type groundwork. @sbloom has a list of good resources for that type of work too.

I hope that I'm very wrong and it's just bad photo angles. None of my business but you asked and that would be my answer not that it's worth a jot as a stranger on the Internet.
 

iknowmyvalue

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Feel very free to ignore me. This is only my opinion and its not worth much at the best of times!

I've always found his posture concerning but based solely on the two pictures provided I would engage the services of a very good equine vet and my thoughts are that there might be something needing addressed but obviously just a discussion with them initially.

If a plumb line is dropped down through the seat bone and hock the hindlimb in the "after" picture is further in front of it and it appears the the fetlocks have dropped. With the disclaimer that the photos aren't taken at the exact same angle in the exact same location etc

The negative plantar angles are obviously a concern but nothing happens in isolation and I'd want higher up looked at too, be it as a primary or secondary issue.

The forelimb stance, and shoulder, appear to have changed angles too although it's hard to see clearly with the boots on if that's hoof or what related.

Its evident he's recently been clipped and has just finished work but the marks left by the saddlecloth/saddle are deeper over the withers and at the front of the saddle. The highest pressure area is generally where the rider sitsbut shouldn't be where it looks like in the photo. He has clearly filled out behind his wither but I think the saddle may need checked and adjusted to allow for that.

No help with the hooves as I'd pull shoes and xray then "rehab" a horse barefoot to let them, within reason, sort themselves rather than in alignment with how a textbook says that they should look and move.

Iirc, and every chance I don't, HufflyPuff had a similar horse that she massively improved with posture training and rehab type groundwork. @sbloom has a list of good resources for that type of work too.

I hope that I'm very wrong and it's just bad photo angles. None of my business but you asked and that would be my answer not that it's worth a jot as a stranger on the Internet.
It is partly the photo angles but yes, he does (not always) have a tendency to stand like that. Despite what these photos suggest it’s actually a in general a lot better now compared to what it was. He has absolutely no soundness issues whatsoever (had a 5 stage vetting by a very experienced vet and I’m neurotic about the soundness of my own so watch them regularly), and his brilliant physio/osteo (who is also a rehab practitioner) is happy there’s nothing medical underlying and it’s just historic tension/discomfort which will take time to undo completely. I do appreciate what you’re saying though, and trust me I’ve had all the same thoughts!

You are right about the saddle though and it’s being checked next week, because I thought the same thing.

I am open to the idea of taking the back shoes off if it’s the right thing for him. I’ve never had one barefoot but I’m open to looking into anything if it’s right for him.

Very interested in new resources for groundwork etc. as I try to do that 1-2 days a week with him anyway.

Not the best photos but just to show he doesn’t always stand quite as camped under as that!
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iknowmyvalue

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Mini update on the feet.

Big thanks to @LEC and @ester for the resources and the push I needed to take it further!

X-rays taken of all 4 feet a few days ago. Fronts are pretty spot on with balance and angles. Hinds he’s got a slight NPA (about -1 degree) but heels look low rather than underrun, and medio-lateral balance is good. Had a good chat with farrier this eve. First plan is to go with frog support pads and impression material to change the angles slightly to allow heels to grow.

Farrier seems supportive so far which is good. Said it might be worth a tad of sedation to make sure we get it just right as apparently sometimes P gets upset by random things and then is hard to get him to chill and stand still. I can imagine this, he’s pretty good with me now and a million times calmer in general but he’s definitely worse with men and people he doesn’t know well (and farrier has only shod him 4 times I think, so deffo in that category). We’ll start off with some sedalin to take the edge off and see if that helps. Apparently he can manage him without for normal shoes and he is improving, but just wants to make sure any remedial stuff is as accurate as possible.

Plan to re-xray after 1-2 cycles and see where we are. With a view to maybe take the hind shoes off at the end of the event season and potentially leave them off unless he needs them for any reason.
 

Michen

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Mini update on the feet.

Big thanks to @LEC and @ester for the resources and the push I needed to take it further!

X-rays taken of all 4 feet a few days ago. Fronts are pretty spot on with balance and angles. Hinds he’s got a slight NPA (about -1 degree) but heels look low rather than underrun, and medio-lateral balance is good. Had a good chat with farrier this eve. First plan is to go with frog support pads and impression material to change the angles slightly to allow heels to grow.

Farrier seems supportive so far which is good. Said it might be worth a tad of sedation to make sure we get it just right as apparently sometimes P gets upset by random things and then is hard to get him to chill and stand still. I can imagine this, he’s pretty good with me now and a million times calmer in general but he’s definitely worse with men and people he doesn’t know well (and farrier has only shod him 4 times I think, so deffo in that category). We’ll start off with some sedalin to take the edge off and see if that helps. Apparently he can manage him without for normal shoes and he is improving, but just wants to make sure any remedial stuff is as accurate as possible.

Plan to re-xray after 1-2 cycles and see where we are. With a view to maybe take the hind shoes off at the end of the event season and potentially leave them off unless he needs them for any reason.
I would not personally be eventing or asking much of a horse with that pathology behind re feet until you have a genuine improvement. My young horse had similar issues, we have improvements (albiet not as quickly as I’d like but then it never is!) but the hind angles are much better and normal now on x Ray despite them looking suspicious on the outside. He is moving so much better, standing so much better. I really think it’s something that needs sorting before you put them under too much pressure.

I took the shoes off after failed wedges but I would definitely consider frog support pads if needed.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post.
 

iknowmyvalue

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I would not personally be eventing or asking much of a horse with that pathology behind re feet until you have a genuine improvement. My young horse had similar issues, we have improvements (albiet not as quickly as I’d like but then it never is!) but the hind angles are much better and normal now on x Ray despite them looking suspicious on the outside. He is moving so much better, standing so much better. I really think it’s something that needs sorting before you put them under too much pressure.

I took the shoes off after failed wedges but I would definitely consider frog support pads if needed.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post.
No, he definitely won’t be eventing for a few months at least! The next month or two were going to be quiet for him anyway, so now even more reason to keep it that way. If he needs more time that’s fine by me, investing in long term soundness and all that.

I more meant that if it helps, and I get him out eventing, I don’t want to be making radical changes to his foot management while they’re under that pressure. I thought better to wait until autumn when I can take time to condition his feet and he’ll probably be having a break from competing anyway.
 

Michen

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No, he definitely won’t be eventing for a few months at least! The next month or two were going to be quiet for him anyway, so now even more reason to keep it that way. If he needs more time that’s fine by me, investing in long term soundness and all that.

I more meant that if it helps, and I get him out eventing, I don’t want to be making radical changes to his foot management while they’re under that pressure. I thought better to wait until autumn when I can take time to condition his feet and he’ll probably be having a break from competing anyway.
I would be thinking gentle walk hacking for 2/3 cycles and then if improved bringing him back for end of season not intending to have him out in a few months. When we thought that was the “only” issue with mine my vet was very specific about that. I just wouldn’t underestimate the impact the NPAs have on them that’s all.

They are also usually secondary to something else.
 

iknowmyvalue

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If anyone is interested, this is the difference in his posture over one shoeing cycle in remedial shoes. Left is the photo at the top of this post, middle was after 1wk, right was yesterday (it’s mirrored to be the same direction as the other two, his

We were able to trim to a positive PA using X-rays, then have just been using frog supports and dental impression material. Having spoken to several people (vets/farrier/other experts), looking at X-rays and doing a bit of research, we decided to keep him in full work after a gentle few weeks at the start.

I’m really happy with the results, and he must be more comfortable. Will be interested to hear what the physio thinks when she sees him next week.

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iknowmyvalue

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Thanks all! I’ve got to say that my farrier has been more supportive than I thought he might be, which is great. Special shoes are expensive but I’m sure will save me money/heartache long term.

I’ve also been doing a lot of groundwork to encourage the better posture, which I’m sure is helping too. Lots of walk poles, reversing/going sideways over poles, straddle poles…

Goes to show that just because a horse has “always” been like that, doesn’t mean they have to stay like that!
 

quizzie

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Thanks all! I’ve got to say that my farrier has been more supportive than I thought he might be, which is great. Special shoes are expensive but I’m sure will save me money/heartache long term.

I’ve also been doing a lot of groundwork to encourage the better posture, which I’m sure is helping too. Lots of walk poles, reversing/going sideways over poles, straddle poles…

Goes to show that just because a horse has “always” been like that, doesn’t mean they have to stay like that!
That looks a great improvement.

I am very lucky that the farrier who wrote that thesis (fwcf-thesis ), is my farrier . If your farrier ever wanted to discuss it with him, he is very approachable, and I'm sure would be happy to chat!
 
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