80% of Horses Have Kissing Spine...

[marieshorses]

Hello Community:

I recently heard that over 80% of horses have at least one vertebrae that is close and/or kissing the other.

I've also heard there is no such thing as a completely healthy back and spine.

My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine? What type of horses are usually x-ray'd?

Any other information you can share about cervical spine and back findings would be appreciated, especially as it relates to dressage horses.

Thanks!
Marie

 

[Chinchilla]

Following :O

 

[Auslander]

Source?

Bit of a ridiculous statement, when the majority of horses don't have routine back xrays. Even if 80% of horses that are xrayed have kissing spines, that is presumably because they were xrayed to investigate problems that suggested they may have kissing spines

 

[cobgoblin]

I would suspect that way over 80% of horses never have a spine X-ray in their life.

 

[tristar]

i was told this by a top racehorse trainer, he was was told this by his vet, 80 per cent. at POST MORTEM i think they said.


what we we need to know is, unless this is a thing that happens naturally, what is causing this to happen and how to avoid it if possible.

this is why it is so important to consider the horses back during training and how it uses itself

 

[TGM]

It is quite common for spine x-rays to be requested when purchasing valuable competition horses, so it would be quite interesting to see the stats from this group as they are done as a routine precaution rather than because the horse is showing symptoms.

 

[DiNozzo]

And also how many of that 80% are symptomatic.?

 

[blitznbobs]

I was told by a back vet that most horses he X-rays for any reason have kissing spines but he thinks that kissing spines is totally over operated on and that most of the issues the horses have is nothing to do with the 'kissing spine' at all... I'm inclined to believe it's a 'fashionable ' diagnosis and that there are many horses who are operated on that do not benefit from such surgery ... but I am willing to see evidence to the contrary!

 

[cobgoblin]

i was told this by a top racehorse trainer, he was was told this by his vet, 80 per cent. at POST MORTEM i think they said.


what we we need to know is, unless this is a thing that happens naturally, what is causing this to happen and how to avoid it if possible.

this is why it is so important to consider the horses back during training and how it uses itself

Was this 80% of racehorses? Most horses are not post-mortemed.

 

[Goldenstar]

Did they X-ray a random selection of horses in work and find that 80% of them had changes or crowding or did they find changes/crowding in 80 % of horses where a work up led to the back being X rayed .
You really need to know before you can make any comment .

On race horses I would not be all surprised if the KS rate was much higher in horses that race .
Also in people can you imagine if you took a group of reasonably fit fifty somethings and worked them up like a horse gets you would find all sorts of orthopaedic changes and chronic soft tissue damage .

 

[ester]

Hello Community:


My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine? What type of horses are usually x-ray'd?


Thanks!
Marie

That it shouldn't be used in isolation.

What type of horse- one that has problems/symptoms.

I think those answers are rather obvious and applicable to most things though!

 

[Wheels]

I remember reading something about these types of studies - they usually are undertaken on horses that have ended up at the abattoir, presumably a lot of ex racers and/or horses with behavioral problems so the 80% occurrence in that particular scenario does not surprise me really.

I would be astonished if 80% of all horses have KS

 

[soloequestrian]

I haven't checked this, it's from memory, but I think there are similar stats about humans - huge numbers of people are wandering about with slipped discs and arthritic changes that can be visualised but don't actually cause symptoms. That's a really interesting point about over-diagnosis and operations on kissing spines, I wonder how much rehab work that takes place after the surgery might actually alleviate problems without any surgery. I haven't been involved in any cases so have no clue what the process involves!

 

[hottoddy]

That's a really interesting point about over-diagnosis and operations on kissing spines, I wonder how much rehab work that takes place after the surgery might actually alleviate problems without any surgery. I haven't been involved in any cases so have no clue what the process involves!

Liverpool University are conducting a study on this, they are giving owners a prescribed rehab program prior to operating to see if it makes a difference on its own before they perform any surgery

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I was told by a back vet that most horses he X-rays for any reason have kissing spines but he thinks that kissing spines is totally over operated on and that most of the issues the horses have is nothing to do with the 'kissing spine' at all... I'm inclined to believe it's a 'fashionable ' diagnosis and that there are many horses who are operated on that do not benefit from such surgery ... but I am willing to see evidence to the contrary!

I sort of agree with this.

Our tb went lame rh only noticed under saddle. Went in for work up and vet sound sacro pain and then on x-ray kissing spines but the looks of it it had been there a long time. We had no problems ridden from this horse apart from an episode of rearing due to a badly fitting saddle. So it was the sacro pain that led to the ks being found and I'm pretty sure that if he didn't go lame we wouldn't have found out about the ks

 

[Regandal]

I suspect it's the same scenario as the 'navicular changes' found in lots of horses at pm. Most of the horses had no symptoms.

 

[cobgoblin]

It would be interesting to know the incidence in a wild unridden population such as mustangs.

 

[daffy44]

I struggle to believe that 80% of all horses have KS, I do also think its a fashionable diagnosis, but thats not to say that more horses have it, than are diagnosed with it.

Personally, I have had spinal xrays done on two dressage horses as part of a pre purchase exam. One was a just backed 5yr old, she is now a fit happy (unmedicated) 15yr old horse competing at GP, her back has never given me a seconds concern. The other one was a just backed 4yr old, she is now 6, and has also, so far, given me no cause for concern. Both had totally healthy clear xrays, that were viewed by two different vet practises.

ETA: Neither horse has ever worn a pessoa!

 

[ester]

Liverpool University are conducting a study on this, they are giving owners a prescribed rehab program prior to operating to see if it makes a difference on its own before they perform any surgery

Thinking a bit cross thread here but does it include a pessoa?

I think over diagnosis and over operating are likely two separate issues. There may well be horses that can be made more comfortable without surgery (and anecdotally there certainly is) but would still be diagnosed as KS with symptoms at that point.

 

[HashRouge]

Was this 80% of racehorses? Most horses are not post-mortemed.

Yes I was wondering that. Because if it is racehorses it wouldn't surprise me, as backing a horse at 18 months is surely exactly the sort of thing that would result in kissing spines.

 

[rachk89]

Once my horse was diagnosed with KS that, my saddler said they (as in her and other saddle makers) think there are more horses out there with KS than people are aware of. But she never said it was that high. I would agree with her statement though as I've seen a few horses that after my horses diagnosis I've thought I wonder if you have the same problem.

Mine wasnt operated on either. The vets I have prefer not to if they can get away with it and he's managed to have the drug only thank god. He may need a top up next year but we'll wait and see.

 

[Evie91]

Recently speaking to person whose horse recently being diagnosed with KS. She told me her Vet stated that research is suggestions KS is a secondary condition; as I understood it caused by horse compensating for problem elsewhere, so rather than operate more investigations to find the primary problem.

 

[hottoddy]

Thinking a bit cross thread here but does it include a pessoa? QUOTE]

No! Long reining and raised poles are the main elements

 

[marieshorses]

Source?

Bit of a ridiculous statement, when the majority of horses don't have routine back xrays. Even if 80% of horses that are xrayed have kissing spines, that is presumably because they were xrayed to investigate problems that suggested they may have kissing spines

Similar to medicine in humans, pathology is usually generated collectively through mostly "sick" or degenerating health. I'm curious in equine science how many of the back x-ray's are compiled through age groups--like the younger horse-- versus post mortem. Since technology is more portable, thus making x-ray's cheaper, are there any large animal veterinary programs that have collected data on younger horses? Children go through scoliosis examinations at very young ages...

 

[marieshorses]

Recently speaking to person whose horse recently being diagnosed with KS. She told me her Vet stated that research is suggestions KS is a secondary condition; as I understood it caused by horse compensating for problem elsewhere, so rather than operate more investigations to find the primary problem.

Interesting and what's fascinating is the viral aspect as well. I wonder if the stifle or hocks play a role in compressing the vertebrae....

 

[marieshorses]

Once my horse was diagnosed with KS that, my saddler said they (as in her and other saddle makers) think there are more horses out there with KS than people are aware of. But she never said it was that high. I would agree with her statement though as I've seen a few horses that after my horses diagnosis I've thought I wonder if you have the same problem.

Mine wasnt operated on either. The vets I have prefer not to if they can get away with it and he's managed to have the drug only thank god. He may need a top up next year but we'll wait and see.

How many vertebrae are "kissing" on your horse? I assume the diagnosis was done through x-rays?

 

[marieshorses]

That it shouldn't be used in isolation.

What type of horse- one that has problems/symptoms.

I think those answers are rather obvious and applicable to most things though!

Similar to medicine in humans, pathology is usually generated collectively through mostly "sick" or degenerating health. I'm curious in equine science how many of the back x-ray's are compiled through age groups--like the younger horse-- versus post mortem. Since technology is more portable, thus making x-ray's cheaper, are there any large animal veterinary programs that have collected data on younger horses? Children go through scoliosis examinations at very young ages...

 

[marieshorses]

I remember reading something about these types of studies - they usually are undertaken on horses that have ended up at the abattoir, presumably a lot of ex racers and/or horses with behavioral problems so the 80% occurrence in that particular scenario does not surprise me really.

I would be astonished if 80% of all horses have KS

What's interesting about this area of equine science is the actual definition of kissing spine as it relates to each horse individually. I would think the entire sport would benefit substantially if we discussed these compressed vertebrae from foal to younger horse by a large pool of x-ray's.

 

[marieshorses]

I haven't checked this, it's from memory, but I think there are similar stats about humans - huge numbers of people are wandering about with slipped discs and arthritic changes that can be visualised but don't actually cause symptoms. That's a really interesting point about over-diagnosis and operations on kissing spines, I wonder how much rehab work that takes place after the surgery might actually alleviate problems without any surgery. I haven't been involved in any cases so have no clue what the process involves!

Children are examined at very young ages for scoliosis. We should have the same in foal/younger horses to understand the development of the back, etc...

 

[marieshorses]

I sort of agree with this.

Our tb went lame rh only noticed under saddle. Went in for work up and vet sound sacro pain and then on x-ray kissing spines but the looks of it it had been there a long time. We had no problems ridden from this horse apart from an episode of rearing due to a badly fitting saddle. So it was the sacro pain that led to the ks being found and I'm pretty sure that if he didn't go lame we wouldn't have found out about the ks

Interesting... So was the lameness determined to be caused by the compressed vertebrae? Did you x-ray? If yes, how many of the vertebrae were touching?