A collie question. .. on my dads behalf.

Fiona

Fiona

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My dad has a two yo rescue border collie. No previous history known. She is friendly, obedient with basic commands inside, housetrained, walks well on lead and doesn't chew or have any other bad habits.

However she has no recall outside once she hears a noise.. He walks mostly in forest park, and she has on occasion disappeared for up to 15 min. Once it was after some deer, and other times because she has heard a distant dog barking.

If we attend doggy fun park she is very collie like in her behaviour. If other dogs run, she tries to run with them and herd them. Doesn't play particularly well with these strange dogs though does play nicely with my terrier pup.

Dad has resorted to not letting her off now, which is a shame. He has previously read my total recall book but as she is not food orientated at all, he doesn't really know how to proceed with training her recall if that makes sense.

I suggested he encourage her to retrieve a tennis ball and use this as a distraction and reward but he maintains she isn't keen.

He had a one to one dog agility lesson and says she was very clever and picked it up quickly but was easily distracted by dogs in adjacent areas, wanting to chase etc..

She is better when walking with my pup who has quite good recall, but will still leave us and hare off into the undergrowth..

Can any of you lovely peeps think of anything I can suggest to him.

Fiona
 
I'd be looking at exercising her in an alternative way, where she can use her brain, like agility or obedience, running her in a secure area, biking or swimming her or keeping her on a long line if she can't be trusted off lead. A dog that disappears for 15 minutes could get into all sorts of diffs - RTC, dog fight, sheep worrying etc.

If training with food, the dog needs to be hungry, feeding treats on top of normal food isn't going to cut it versus the drive to hunt or chase.
If I got £100 from my boss at 8am I wouldn't be inclined to work too hard during the day.
Similarly a flirt pole or a raggy toy would probably stimulate her more than a tennis ball.

All of this needs to be started off small and the distractions added in gradually.
 
She is fed twice per day cc, should I suggest breakfast is decreased and dinner increased?

He's tried chicken etc as treats not just boring kibble..

Should I suggest he perseveres with the agility?

Fiona
 
If she likes it, I'd continue.

If she eats well generally and if she were mine, I'd be using the boring kibble and pretty much all of her food would come from me, through attention and training and games.
But I appreciate that not everyone wants to do that and not all dogs are gorbs.

Also, if she's already had the opportunity to bog off and reward herself, that is probably worth more to her than skipping a meal.
 
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Agree with the alternative exercise and training in a non stimulating environment (home, then garden, then progress to adding in other environments) and a long line until she can be trusted to return.

This is a really good article which is primarily about chasing, but also really helps improve recall. It takes some work and patience but is really worth sticking with.

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/
 
Thank you gsd.. Very informative. Sending the article to dad. It might encourage him to try again with ball retrieval.

Cc I'll try and persuade him to give agility another go :)

A long line won't work in the forest though :(

She chases my cats, before that started she used to have a lovely long run in my fields with my pup..

Fiona
 
I used to walk my old dog on a long line in the forest? After two boggings off, wasn't worth the risk. It was just a lunge line on a harness and it trailed on the ground. If I saw him pause and his ears go forward, I stood on it. It was on a path though, not through the trees.
 
I would be tempted to disappear myself, if the dog runs off and you go looking for her, calling etc then she can please herself when she returns knowing that you will still be around. If when she decides to come back no where is there she would soon learn to keep an eye on you herself. A few years ago I had 2 young collies and if they got too far ahead I would hide when they returned, they soon learnt to stay around. Obviously you need to do this somewhere safe !
 
My collie isn't food originated when training so i use his ball and a release to run as his reward.

I would try and find a trainer that knows collies to help, sometimes the herding instinct needs special help to crack and sometimes you can't as collies are quite hard to get learned habits out of, speaking from experience here.
 
Kong do squeaky (and hard wearing) tennis balls - the high pitched squeak gets their attention and mine (granted he's a terrier) goes absolutely wild for it. Definitely works for him, as a recall/distraction aid. He wasn't that interested in chasing a ball until we found the squeaky ones, now he loves it above all else!
 
Fiona said:
……..

I suggested he encourage her to retrieve a tennis ball and use this as a distraction and reward but he maintains she isn't keen.

……..

Fiona
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She won't be interested, she's wired for one job only, and that's to herd and gather sheep and bring them to her handler. Such dogs won't be effected by distractions and should the only thing to 'herd' be another dog, or deer in the distance, then that'll do. Children can also provide the necessary trigger too, and that may need watching.

The poor dog sounds like she's living a frustrated life, NOT a criticism of you or your Dad, just an observation. If your Dad is rural, does he have any competent shepherds near to him? It may well be the answer.

Alec.
 
Thanks for all the replies :)

bonny that definitely works. If he hides behind a tree she comes straight back, but not if she is already chasing...

slightly confused - thats a good idea. I don't think the lady he goes to really understands the problem.

ponyparty - I know the ones you mean, I'll buy him some.. Ball was a dismal failure today, but only because 5yo son rolled it into a patch of burrs and both dogs now covered :( Different walk next time lol..

alec- most border collies don't get the opportunity to herd sheep, surely he just needs to find an alternative. ..

Fiona
 
I am expert at purchasing squeaky toys for collies I dont live with ;) I'm nice like that and can confirm that they have all well appreciated the kong squeaky tennis ball version :).
No other help :p.
 
Fiona said:
……..

alec- …….. , surely he just needs to find an alternative. ..

Fiona
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I agree, but one that she will accept. She already knows what she wants and redirecting her will not be simple.

'most border collies don't get the opportunity to herd sheep' …….. and how do we expect them to react when denied their natural instinct? There are those breeds of working dog, especially those which arrive direct from working stock, which live lives of frustration, I'm sorry to tell you.

I'm not criticising you or your father, I'm simply pointing out the facts.

Alec.
 
My now 2.5 year old collie lives to herd the horses, I am sure she thinks her name is Frisbee! I can whistle her back or call her back (with a bark like instruction) but the easiest option is to keep her attention with the Frisbee.

They do live to herd, I was stood on friends yard today, friend and self chatting with her 4 dogs stood with us and my bc circling us constantly like a shark until I called her off! (Sigh) easiest dogs ever in many respects and in some ways the hardest!

Just to add you can wave steak at my bc and if it's in herding mode she will ignore you. I also hide or leave the yard if she doesn't return immediately when called, keeps her on her toes !
 
Thanks meesha... So distraction is the key then?

We had a lovely walk yesterday off lead with pup and her, but it was v quiet and apart from a couple of bikes there were no other dogs or people..

Fiona
 
Alec Swan said:
I agree, but one that she will accept. She already knows what she wants and redirecting her will not be simple.

'most border collies don't get the opportunity to herd sheep' …….. and how do we expect them to react when denied their natural instinct? There are those breeds of working dog, especially those which arrive direct from working stock, which live lives of frustration, I'm sorry to tell you.

I'm not criticising you or your father, I'm simply pointing out the facts.

Alec.
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Mine is afryof sheep but thinks he is a horsedog!! Loves trying herd the horses up 😂

But with him apart from that he is just happy to sniff and run and then go home and sleep.

When he was younger he got bit by an angry rabbit after the umpteenth time of herding him up 😂 then we got a nicer rabbit that thought ut was a fab game and then turned it into chase, the collie would chase him to one end of the house then the would turn around and the rabbit would chase the collie and when they were tired they would go rest by the patio
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Mine is afryof sheep but thinks he is a horsedog!! Loves trying herd the horses up 😂

But with him apart from that he is just happy to sniff and run and then go home and sleep.

When he was younger he got bit by an angry rabbit after the umpteenth time of herding him up 😂 then we got a nicer rabbit that thought ut was a fab game and then turned it into chase, the collie would chase him to one end of the house then the would turn around and the rabbit would chase the collie and when they were tired they would go rest by the patio
Click to expand...

I would have loved to see that :)

Fiona
 
Sounds a lot like my dog when he was younger. Remember once he ran off with two lunge lines attached (was too slow to step on the extra long line!) and bought by by children who has seen him running across a field. Another time I could see him streaking across four fields, until he was a dot in the distance, friend and I still calling and then he stopped and came back.
We rent woodland at the back of our house and many times he would go off after a muntjac and be gone for around fifteen mins.
However, he is now six and does it much less. We have chickens and he thinks his job is to herd them (from the other side of the wire), he herds the mower, used to herd my old horse and will do it with other dogs, much to their annoyance when they want to play (he doesn't do wrestling or playing). Just careful now where we let him off; some fields or paths were he can't go astray, rented woodland etc
He's not interested in food rewards (although hot dog sausages were a good draw for a while), neither is he interested in a ball for very long!
Sounds very similar to your Dad's dog, nothing of use to add really just to say we have also been through it. What I will add is our dog is THE best dog in the world, he has his quirks but we love him :)
 
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