A different view of laminitis

brighteyes

brighteyes

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Is it kinder to ad lib feed or let a pony graze without restriction and allow laminitis to develop, then pts before pony suffers much at all, or maintain a healthy weight by diet and exercise, even though this may mean certain ponies and horses are not as 'happy' as they could be due to regular work, 'restricted' feeding, muzzles and monitored turnout?

I really don't know now, though I have always practised the latter.
 
QUOTE : ' let a pony graze without restriction and allow laminitis to develop, then pts before pony suffers much at all'

Weird kind of thinking..

????????? :(
 
this is a question that i too have pondered, having been on a couple of yards where some some very laminitc prone ponies were kept on a regime so extreme, that although it did keep them laminitc free - sometimes it felt that the treatment was worse than the disease
 
Surely it's a question of quality of life? In my experience, most ponies/horses will easily adapt to muzzling or restricting grazing and most welcome the chance to exercise their bodies and minds in one way or another. If you're talking restricting grazing by having them shut up in their stables 24/7 with no capacity to interact with other horses or do what comes naturally to them then of course that's not fair either but in that case I don't think letting them get laminitis, a very painful disease is entirely humane! If they cannot be managed in a way where they have an acceptable quality of life then PTS right away!
 
I was sort of wondering this. But only be because met a pony last week who has no turnout from march to November to prevent lami. No others are in so he effectively lives in isolation for 7 months of the year.
 
My answer would be that it is cruller to let
a pony develop laminitis than to restrict it over eating.
Ponies evolved living on the poorest of gazing. Take them from that environment and give them good grazing and hay and hard feed during the winter instead of letting them get vey thin as would happen in nature, could be considered as 'cruelty' but is in fact, a more natural way of keeping them.
I certainly have no worries about restricting a pony's diet to prevent laminitis. See one with it in all four feet and you would understand why.
 
I have 3 lammi ponies. 2 of them are currently lammi free and happily living together on a small bald paddock. They love it. You see them bombing around, bullying the fat youngster that is in with them on a diet. Yes I am sure they would love to be in a huge big grassy field stuffing their faces BUT how happy would they be after 2 days when they get really sore and unable to move? My 3rd lammi pony is currently still on the boxrest stage as he only got it for the first time a few weeks ago. When he is allowed out he will be on restricted turnout and work. Once he has stabilised fully I will see how much he can cope with.

Personally I would rather manage Lammi because I have the facilities too and I have more than one pony so they can keep each other company.
 
A laminitis attack does not come on slowly, the first you may realise is when the pony is in agony. The pain is unbelievable - imagine tightly lacing your feet into a pair of shoes several sizes too small, full of broken glass and standing up in them. You cannot guarantee to be there to spot the first signs either.

The correctly managed horse will not get laminitis in the normal course of things, too many cases are human caused. But if your horse did get it why wouldn't you want to keep him pain free and living an active life?
 
Glad to be getting the kind of responses I am. It really is tricky (and not just physically but from a humane point of view) to replicate the conditions a native is designed to exist in. I really think laminitis is something to guard against FROM THE OUTSET, not just after the signs have set in!

It was something Daisydo said in her post on another thread below (or above, depending!) prompted me to ask this.

Overfeeding, even if you get away with it to start with, will have repercussions in later life. You are just sowing the seeds, that's all. EMS ring any bells? It's laminitis' silent and nastier twin.
 
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I often wondered a similar kind of question regarding my gelding who has now had chronic laminitis for the last 12 years. Before anyone jumps on me... he IS managed as well as is possible.. but it all kicked off with a strange hypocalcaemic attack.. and while diet doesn't SEEM to affect him, we still act as though it can.

But, he is a retired native pony - I manage him to the best of everyone's ability (including his own purpose built/converted yard with paddocks attached, EVA matting, specifically bought friend who could live with him in laminitic routine :D etc etc etc). I have come to my own conclusion, and have to say have been well supported by my vets and farrier, that he has to live as normal a life as possible in order to keep him alive. We manage minor spells with limited box rest and xrays.. but after all these years I now will not see him either put through a long spell of box rest if we think he has a limited prognosos from it, I want him to end his days as high as possible, not after another long spell of confinement. Most of the time he is allowed out 24/7, sometimes he has to wear a muzzle and he has to work for his grazing. But again... after all he has been through, I would be unable to stand by and see him while out his days feeling extremely hungry.

My case is probably different in so far as he will never return to work. His weight is very good and he is never over weight, but I must come up with ways of making sure he is occupied and not hungry. It is difficult to decide, but in my case he would be no better off if I just maintained his life until he were old enough for it to seem 'right' to PTS. He might as well have a possibly shorter time spent enjoying himself.
 
totally the latter brighteyes!!!!! who would do the former?????? that is crazy thinking...

Def correct management & muzzle if you can't do paddock paradise (my idea of an ideal setting if you want to prevent or let one recover from lami)...

I do have a conundrum I have been pondering at for a while now.... there are 7 horses turned out in about 1mile square probably more of mature beef pasture, hills & dales and this is the case all year. No muzzle no nothing, most aren't even worked all year and are 17 & up to 32. None have ever had lami and have lived like this for all thier lives. WHY oh WHY is life so unfair??? Why is it only mine gets lami???

Mine did not have this life from a young age. He was bulked up for the showring and got it early which predisposes him.... he now has a bit of liver damage and is kept well despite that. So, my question... can you set a horse up to get lami but overfeeding when young???
 
tallyho! said:
Mine did not have this life from a young age. He was bulked up for the showring and got it early which predisposes him.... he now has a bit of liver damage and is kept well despite that. So, my question... can you set a horse up to get lami but overfeeding when young???
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Yes, if a horse is overweight long term, it makes them more prone to laminitis - in a similar way to overweight humans being more prone to type 2 diabetes. This is because fat is not just an inert energy store as previously thought, but is involved in hormone production. Too much body fat can alter the hormone balance resulting in animals becoming insulin resistant and therefore much more prone to laminitis.

I actually did a thread about this the other day - here is the link which contains more info:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=471571
 
It is rather simplistic to say that it can be easily controlled, it sometimes comes on very, veryquickly. There was a lady with a barefoot endurance horse that developed laminitis overnight, also there are other reasons not just too much grass.

Still when it is a matter of a pony having to be kept in isolation and in a stable for all the summer then that is a time to look at its welfare. If you have your animals at home you can adapt the living conditions, but for a person in a livery yard it is not so easy.

So, yes I think there can be a time when PTS is a kinder option, but it depends on what the pony is doing work wise, does it have an active life at all, or is it condemed to spend its whole life in a stable.
 
I wouldn't purposely let a horse/pony get laminitis and then think oh well just have it PTS, because that is wrong on so many levels. But, if i had a pony/horse that got laminitis even though i had managed it correctly and it's future life was going to involve extreme management which put it's real quality of life in question then i would seriously consider PTS.

My grazing probably looks crap to most people but it's how i like it, it's never lush and some years it looks like more weeds than grass but I've not had any problems with laminitis (touch wood)
 
Not really sure if I read your post correctly but I had my mare put to sleep mainly because I didn't want her to live the life she'd of had to stop her getting laminitis again. This was to either be stabled 24/7 or be kept on a patch of concrete with a haynet. At the age of 24 and for a horse that lived for food, I felt for her this would be torture. Not only this it's the isolation from other horses and having access to things that horses love like rolling, rubbing on trees etc etc. Even if she'd of been two I'd of come to the same decision. To me (and she had severe laminitis) it is no life!

This is only my opinion though and everyone has there own thoughts on the subject xx
 
Laminitis is not inevitable - with good management it can be prevented. It's not easy, but it is possible. Not all natives have to end up laminitic.

Now if you have a horse that has had laminitis it really depends on the individual prognosis of the horse and the restrictions it will be under IMO. If the horse will have no life to speak of, then possibly PTS.

However, I would sooner see an otherwise healthy horse sulking in a grazing muzzle before it ever gets laminitis, than in the kind of agony this horrible condition causes.
 
TGM said:
Yes, if a horse is overweight long term, it makes them more prone to laminitis - in a similar way to overweight humans being more prone to type 2 diabetes. This is because fat is not just an inert energy store as previously thought, but is involved in hormone production. Too much body fat can alter the hormone balance resulting in animals becoming insulin resistant and therefore much more prone to laminitis.

I actually did a thread about this the other day - here is the link which contains more info:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=471571
Click to expand...

Thank you TGM. I know this, just wish everyone would catch up.
 
Orangehorse said:
It is rather simplistic to say that it can be easily controlled, it sometimes comes on very, veryquickly. There was a lady with a barefoot endurance horse that developed laminitis overnight, also there are other reasons not just too much grass.

Still when it is a matter of a pony having to be kept in isolation and in a stable for all the summer then that is a time to look at its welfare. If you have your animals at home you can adapt the living conditions, but for a person in a livery yard it is not so easy.

So, yes I think there can be a time when PTS is a kinder option, but it depends on what the pony is doing work wise, does it have an active life at all, or is it condemed to spend its whole life in a stable.
Click to expand...

Sorry and yes, I ought to have said simple grass/feed induced type. Laminitis is a symptom of disesase.
 
Spudlet said:
Laminitis is not inevitable - with good management it can be prevented. It's not easy, but it is possible. Not all natives have to end up laminitic.

Now if you have a horse that has had laminitis it really depends on the individual prognosis of the horse and the restrictions it will be under IMO. If the horse will have no life to speak of, then possibly PTS.

However, I would sooner see an otherwise healthy horse sulking in a grazing muzzle before it ever gets laminitis, than in the kind of agony this horrible condition causes.
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Me too :)
 
I don't know why the idea of track systems hasn't really taken off; I've have both my natives on one for years now. I suppose if you're at a livery yard it could be tricky :( I have always let my liveries do what they want with pasture, as long as they poo pick!

Mine have't had an attack for 9 years :D even though my pasture is very lush, looks like they are on nothing, but they are and their poo tells me so!

I think most horses would much rather be out on limited grazing than in a stable
 
Sometimes you just need to give the body a chance to heal. My TB got lami one winter, in the snow. It wasn't horrific, we box rested and followed the treatment plan and she came sound fairly quickly. However when we tried to turn her out again (carefully, restricted), she came in footy. Over the following 18 months we tried every possible option, but even if she was ok for a few days, it would re-occur. So I took her off grass completely. She had a woodland paddock with haynets and a friend for 2-3 years after that. Then we moved somewhere where the grass is very poor, long and woody. Tentatively, with muzzle, I tried turning her out again, and she's now back out 24/7. Her body just needed time without the triggers to almost reset itself.
 
brighteyes said:
Is it kinder to ad lib feed or let a pony graze without restriction and allow laminitis to develop, then pts before pony suffers much at all, or maintain a healthy weight by diet and exercise, even though this may mean certain ponies and horses are not as 'happy' as they could be due to regular work, 'restricted' feeding, muzzles and monitored turnout?
Click to expand...
The former scenario describes a decision to let a horse eat himself to death... The negative impact on health is enormous. Should we even ride an overweight/obese horse? How fair is it to ride a horse with low grade hoof discomfort, how fair is it to ride a horse so fat it struggles with it's breathing and it's back and joints are under huge extra pressures from all that blubber...

I'm afraid I have already thought this through and no way could I willfully allow a horse to eat to it's hearts content a field full of lush grass despite how happy he may appear. To allow this and then just put him down to avoid any misery is morally and ethically unthinkable to me now I have knowledge about the effects of obesity in horses.
 
brighteyes said:
Is it kinder to ad lib feed or let a pony graze without restriction and allow laminitis to develop, then pts before pony suffers much at all, or maintain a healthy weight by diet and exercise, even though this may mean certain ponies and horses are not as 'happy' as they could be due to regular work, 'restricted' feeding, muzzles and monitored turnout?

I really don't know now, though I have always practised the latter.
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Personally I would rather manage it, why put the horse/pony through so much pain that can come on in 2 hours or less, it can happen so quickly. I would not want to inflict pain knowingly, its cruel
 
amandap said:
The former scenario describes a decision to let a horse eat himself to death... The negative impact on health is enormous. Should we even ride an overweight/obese horse? How fair is it to ride a horse with low grade hoof discomfort, how fair is it to ride a horse so fat it struggles with it's breathing and it's back and joints are under huge extra pressures from all that blubber...

I'm afraid I have already thought this through and no way could I willfully allow a horse to eat to it's hearts content a field full of lush grass despite how happy he may appear. To allow this and then just put him down to avoid any misery is morally and ethically unthinkable to me now I have knowledge about the effects of obesity in horses.
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This is just how I feel about it, particularly after my former share owner actually made this decision about her other (obese) horse. She said she didn't want to compromise his lifestyle; I think she was frightened she wouldn't be able to manage him correctly. Even a grazing muzzle was 'cruel'. She made this decision having seen him go though excruciating pain with simultaneous big abscesses in both fronts that exited at the coronary band, which smacked to me of an early warning (of a most unpleasant and traumatic sort). What's worse is that she had great facilities to manage him, but wouldn't.
 
Henry only ever had LGL, but even then it was a case of pen him in and give him the most unappetising-looking soaked hay and enough feed for the bute, nothing more. The poor lad was so unbelievably bored and it was a real wake up call that he couldn't get away with those extra kilos anymore (he was 16). He showed all the insulin resistant signs that year, so I was determined to do everything I could to prevent it happening again. Since then he's been restricted from the end of May to November (the grass takes a long time to get going where I am) and grazes a 2 acre bare paddock with his mare. I have to top it up with a slice of hay each and they both get a small feed, but he's happy like that and looks amazing. She's actually a little fatter than I would like, but is 10 years younger, so I've cut down her feed even further to barely enough to put in the vitamins and BY.

Now, I'm sure Henry would be happy as Larry if I put him out in one of the other fields, each about 3 acres of horsey heaven. Happy for about an hour. The owner of my land had her handy man helpfully strim the nettles in my field last week and the aftermath was enough to tell me I'm doing the right thing in restricting him. Poor boy was like a Puffer fish and looked quite miserable after gorging on them all, pulses raging and fetlocks swollen. She was very apologetic about it and I know it won't happen again, but really, how many of these fat horses wandering around their paddocks are happy? Having seen the difference in an acute way, it's so obvious that Henry being sluggish is an unhappy horse, not a lazy 'can't be ar5ed' one.
 
Supertrooper said:
Not really sure if I read your post correctly but I had my mare put to sleep mainly because I didn't want her to live the life she'd of had to stop her getting laminitis again. This was to either be stabled 24/7 or be kept on a patch of concrete with a haynet. At the age of 24 and for a horse that lived for food, I felt for her this would be torture. Not only this it's the isolation from other horses and having access to things that horses love like rolling, rubbing on trees etc etc. Even if she'd of been two I'd of come to the same decision. To me (and she had severe laminitis) it is no life!

This is only my opinion though and everyone has there own thoughts on the subject xx
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I quite see where you are coming from.
There is a pony near me which is stabled overnight, everynight and allowed out into a TINY bare paddock during the day. This elderly pony has cushinoid laminitis. There is another pony in the same field but always at the other side of the electric fence, so they never have contact. If this were my pony , I think I would PTS, there is a very poor quality of life IMO.
However, to answer OP, no I would not let a pony eat itself to death. Laminitis is a horrible condition which no sensible person would knowingly allow an animal to develop.
 
I think the degree you can restrict them depends on the temperament of the horse or pony. I have a pony who is very lami prone who i keep on a mulch pen with hay when the grass is too good for him and he is happy as larry. I'm lucky to keep him at home so I see him for much of the day and he never fusses about not going out with my other horse. He gets fed little and often and is playful and as cheeky as ever and when I have time i take him for a pick of grass. If I ever felt he was getting depressed or unhappy then I would consider PTS but he has adapted well to this lifestyle. I know this regime would be totally unacceptable for some horses and I understand when people take the decision that it is kinder to PTS.

In answer to the OP's question I would never be able to stand back and watch a horse become obese and high risk to lami without doing something to manage the situation. My other horse gets a bit crotchety when I take her in early off the grass at this time of year but I'd prefer this to exposing her to the risk of such a horrible disease.
 
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