A dressage/rollkur post

Paint it Lucky

Paint it Lucky

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Sorry I know this gets done a lot!

Anyway this week I went to watch some high level dressage at a big international show. It was very interesting as I got to watch several of the horses warming up. I was pleasantly surprised to see how relaxed most of the horses looked. Not many, but a few of the horses were being ridden extremely overbent/behind the vertical. I have never really seen rollkur before in real life, only in pictures, so it surprised me that none of the horses looked tense or uncomfortable, none of them were being sawn around or having there heads bent this way and that as you sometimes hear about. They all looked very settled in the position, there was no resistance visible (and I was standing right on the edge of the arena). Also none of them were salivating excessively, just normal amounts despite holding the position for long periods. I did notice that most of these horses had massively overmuscled necks, I suppose this is part of the reason people do it. One of the ones I watched warm up in rollkur then went on to do extremely well in it's test and throughout the test looked very relaxed, powerfull yet obedient.

Anyway so there are my observations! From the way rollkur is discussed I was expecting to see horses dripping in sweat, being beaten along and looking extremely unhappy, this was certainly not the case. I took lots of photos, from snapshots you'd think the positions would be uncomfortable (prehaps they are), but in real life this didn't appear to be the case. Obviously it may of felt different had you been on the horse but who knows. Just some musings for you! Here is a picture:

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I kept hoping this rider would let the horse put his head up but he didn't, went round like this in all paces, yet never showed any tension/resistance. Maybe they just get so used to it they don't bother resisting? Not really sure what else to say, I have never used rollkur myself or worked with anyone who does so not an expert (though I did do a dissertation on it!) Does anyone here know anyone who uses it or have any oppinions?
 
Surprised the horse could see where it was going!!

IMHO I don't understand enough about it to make an informed and sensible comment so I'm not going to.

What I will say though is just cos you see other folk doing something it doesn't necessarily make it right....
 
We must have been stood next to each other! Myself and a friend were watching this guy and were discussing the exact same thing. He never once let that horses head up from that position and he rode it like that for at least an hour. The horse you can just about see in the background was beyond gorgeous. It went beautifully and the rider was so sympathetic to it. Never once did rolkur and it was poetry to watch. Do you know who both riders are by the way?
 
Hmmm - I understand the benefits of this training method, but to me the picture above just does not look right - how can that really be classical training of the horse to help him use himself in the best way?

Very interesting post though! Thanks.
 
i think horses can get accustomed to just about anything...
i'm glad the horses looked relaxed and happy.
i've only ever had one horse (a homebred who no-one else had ever ridden, and who had never been in draw reins) who would allow me to put her neck wherever i wanted at any time, and who would have let me ride her in this position for a long time (not that i did.)
i think that, IF done with skill and feeling, it is perhaps useful as long as the horse is worked with the neck in other positions too, and not in tension.
 
I don't think from that picture that the horse can see where it is going: maybe they have to rely almost 100% on the rider?

It looks uncomfortable to me - but I'd have been just as intrigued as you to see it in real life and to witness that the horses didn't seem distressed.

Its not something I would want to do to a horse I was riding. But can you knock it if it doesn't actually cause distress or pain or damage to the horse and does produce lovely tests? And how would you measure any of the above to find out? Interesting.
 
might stop frank spooking if he could only look at his feet......... though suspect he would never talk to me again
 
This guy only had a snaffle in, whereas some of the metal work and gadgets being used by the show jumpers to warm up in really did beggar belief (and, yes, I know, even a snaffle can be a razor blade in a monkeys hands). The horse in the pic looked like a Friesian (sp) and the OP is right, it didn't look overly vexed to be going around in that position but, as I can't mind read horses, I can't be sure - it could have been silently screaming in pain for all we know. Don't know enough about it to give an educated view but it's not the way I would want to train my horse, that's for sure.
 
Poppy I don't know the riders. I agree the horse in the background was gorgeous and lovely to watch! I took loads of photos of him
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I did feel sorry for this freisian yet was surprised at how it didn't really seem to resist at all. The guy didn't really look to be pulling it or anything harsh, it is hard to know what the horse is really thinking though.
 
That website only_me posted is interesting and might answer your queries as to why the horse didnt look upset in that position. Seems like being at competition is more light relief for them than the intense training they may get at home using rollkur.
 
Jesus love...it's your own photo and you saw it in the flesh...either way, does this honestly look ok or necessary to you?
 
i've read that one of the reason riders do it is because it strengthens the gastrocnemius muscle (sp?) which is the one that makes the front leg come up high - so they can get that very exaggerated 'goose stepping' trot which, unfortunately, a lot of judges (even at top level) are dazzled by. totally incorrect, if hind leg angles do not match front leg angles, though.
 
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I never said it was ok! I don't like rollkur. I was just posting to say how surprised I was at how unbothered the horses looked with it.

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Yes, but that's horses, isn't it?! Teach them what's correct and they'll do it...read Alois Podhajsky, you must know how a horse truly arrives at working correctly? You must know, that this is to create an illusion? In a sick way?!
 
Not a training method I would choose and IMO it looks really uncomfortable. Wonder if the rider would like to walk round with his chin on his chest for an hour?
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A horse trained in the usual way will lift its head above the bit when it gets unbalanced. That sustainable dressage website says a horse trained this way is so used to having its head that low that when it does get unbalanced it wont lift its head high therefore judges wont really notice and mark them down. Still dont think it is right but I can understand why people will do it. And I dont think horses are happy doing this but people train horses to do a lot of things they wouldnt really want to do.

If it isnt that uncomfortable for the horse then I guess it is hard to tell whether the horse is that bothered or not. They must just get used to it.
 
I really don't see any reason for it. To me the horse does not look relaxed, even if was not fighting as such the mouth and eyes look strained and gives the impression to me of discomfort if not pain.

ETA: If it was high level dressage, why was the horse in a snaffle? I thought it was required to wear a double bridle at top level, or am i confusing myself?
 
Have read plenty about rollkur and I think it's one of those things you either can go along with or can't. Personally, I see no issue with it (providing it stays within the limits of good riding - light contact and all, not forced and tense and such) and I'd much rather see this than people whipping their horses and yanking them around etc.
I also see it as a way of teaching the horse to be more obedient by allowing the rider to have a greater degree of control over the placing of their head/neck set, flexible and would work muscles more thoroughly as it obviously makes the horse work differently to how it would normally.
A little like how some people can learn to become flexible - by doing a little at a time you increase the amount of flexibility - I imagine that by gradually lowering the horses head, eventually it will be capable of holding such a position as in the photo. I can't see it being something done instantly.

Hmm. I don't know. I can't say that I'd consider myself knowledgeable to actually attempt the method myself (would not like to see it done wrong, heh) and I don't know of anyone who's actually used the method. And I'm very tired so probably making no sense xD Oh well... I'll go and sleep...
 
My equine physio is a dressage rider and does a lot of dressage horses. She has become involved in endurance and is seriously impressed by endurance horses relaxed and easy way of going and lack of tension in their major muscle groups. I compete up to 160k, so I am no happy hacker BTW. She tells me dressage horses have huge amounts of muscle tension in their necks from overbending. It is ironic to me, as dressage tries to pretend it is so refined and graceful, but it is actually totally artificial and harmful to the horse. My sport is frowned on because it looks like we let our horses lope along with their noses out, but of course, they actually have to have genuine self carriage to stay sound over the long hard miles. A pulled in nose is not self carriage.
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Quite frankly this picture makes me feel sick! I'd like to strap the riders head to his chest and leave it there for an hour and see how he likes it!

I am no great rider but I try to ride my horse like its a living being and not there just for my use, pleasure or profit.

I cannot understand anyone who thinks this method is justifiable?
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Sure you may need to momentarily ask the horse to bend more one way or the other to flex the neck but to ride in this position for so long is in my opinion cruel and unnecessary.

It reminds me of Black Beauty and the use of the bearing rein on carriage horses - perhaps rollkur is the modern equivalent. We need a new Anna Sewell to write the story.
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I wonder if the rider has ever seen a horse's skeleton and exactly where the neck bones go. I thought that if a horse is ridden like that it can get irrepairable damage to its neck ligaments which can happen to horses ridden incorrectly in draw reins.

I think the "horses can get used to anything" is correct. Some horses will put up with almost anything, maybe the breed is very co-operative and "trainable" whereas if you tried it with another horse it might have another opinion.
 
I don't think Rolkur is an alternative to whipping and yanking about. Dressage training is supposed to be physiotherapy for horses, teaching them how to move their bodies correctly and to build up strength and suppleness to be able to carry the rider more easily and beautifully and live a long and sound life.
 
Somethingorother, they were only exercising/warming up, not about to go into a competition, hence why they were in a snaffle.
 
I think the horses put up with this because mentally they are shut down, out to lunch, however you would like to put it. Horses, and other animals including humans, can go into themselves and put up with a huge amount of abuse.
I suppose the bottom line for me is that if this is what you have to do to win, I'd rather not win.
 
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I never said it was ok! I don't like rollkur. I was just posting to say how surprised I was at how unbothered the horses looked with it.

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Yes, but that's horses, isn't it?! Teach them what's correct and they'll do it...read Alois Podhajsky, you must know how a horse truly arrives at working correctly? You must know, that this is to create an illusion? In a sick way?!

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*applauds*

Here here Skewby.

This is an absolutely disgusting practise and I just cannot understand how these means can ever justify the end. Suggest those of you who think it might be ok or "can't see that the horse didn't look stressed" read this book:

Tug of War

This book explains very clearly why rollkur/hyperflexion is so wrong and the physical (and mental) effects it has on the horse. It is a form of abuse IMHO and I can't understand why anyone would stand on the sidelines and watch this - you're all quick enough to join in the witch hunt against Ellen Whittaker for using her spurs once to often yet you won't complain to the steward about this??! Tell me honestly which is worse? Sorry but I can live with seeing EW boot her horse once to often because it stopped. This I can't watch.

They ride their horses this way because then it's supposed to be easier for them to maintain a "competition" outline. Working your horse deep for a few mins is one thing, working it like in the pic above is totally grotesque. Have a read of www.sustainabledressage.com. Very good website.
 
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If it isnt that uncomfortable for the horse then I guess it is hard to tell whether the horse is that bothered or not. They must just get used to it.

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Of course it's uncomfortable for the horse. Try walking around with your head strapped down to your neck for an hour while someone sits on your back and forces your body to move in ways that it can't do while your neck is strapped in.

Yes the horses get used to it - because they switch off. In the same way that the horse learns to live with other sorts of abuse.
 
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