A friendly debate

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teddyt

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For chesnut cob
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and anyone else who fancies it!

Heres something i wrote on another thread. Do you agree/disagree/want to debate something else?
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IMO if you loan a horse then you are responsible for vets fees, unless agreed beforehand that you split them or the owner pays. Full loan means you are responsible for the horse- everything from buying a saddle to vets fees. Why should the owner pay? If they offer, great but i find it really annoying when people with horses on loan EXPECT the owner to pay for things.

If you buy a horse you wouldnt expect the last owner to pay for the ves fees, provide tack or give you hay. Whats different if you loan it? (short term loans/sharing are a different matter)

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You shouldn't expect anything. You should clarify it at the time of making the agreement. The woman I loaned for said you can pay X amount with everything included or you can pay X amount and pay for farrier and rugs on top.
 
Get it all clarified and written down before you take the horse on. I would expect to pay fees if I loaned a horse, others may have a different view.
 
I agree in terms of vets bills unless it's a long standing all ready existing problem, then I would probably expect at least some help.

With regards to tack.....I would expect a loan horse to come with good quality well fitting tack and rugs. If I decided to buy them something then that's my choice but it also belongs to me and wouldn't go back with them.
 
So why do others have a different view? It normally seems to be with vets fees and buying saddles i.e. higher value costs. If i had a pound for every time i heard (including on here)someone say 'my horse is 'only' on loan so i dont want to buy a new saddle' I would be minted! Why does a loan horse not deserve a comfortable saddle any less than an owned horse?
 
Agree with what you've said teddyt!!

Unless otherwise stated, anything you wish to purchase for the horse is up to you to do so. Tack in particular is the biggest issue i think, especially saddles.
 
We had a loan horse when we only had one.

owner very local (lives at back of our field) and decided between us she would pay insurance and vets fees.
current saddle really didnt fit and was replaced at owners expense so saddle could go with him as loan was only for a year.
 
Depends on individual loan agreements, but if I had a horse on a long-term basis I'd expect to cover costs, unless otherwise specified.

Teddyt, that's really sad to think of horses not having their needs met
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I fully expect that my first horse in a couple of years time will be a loan (from a charity for me) so I'll expect to pick up all the tabs
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Short term loans are different, then i feel the owner should contribute to tack if the horse is going back to the owner. that is unless the loaner wrecks it, then they should pay!

Another question- Why do lots of people think about sending a horse back at the first sign of cost or problems?
 
In my opinion if you permanently full loan a horse then you should pay for ALL its upkeep, including tack, shoes/trimming insurance ( unless owner pays for it and gets loaner to pay a contribution or the excess fees in the result of a claim) wear ( ie rugs) and vets bills. ( unless prior arrangements have been made with the owner). If the loan is for a set period only then I would expect as a loaner the horse to come with a wardrobe of tack, and maybe rugs etc. As an owner I would expect the items to be returned in the same or as near to condition as they were when the horse was loaned out. Should any damage incur as a result of negligence and not due to general wear and tear then I would expect the loaner to either pay to replace them, or to be mended or to make a significant contribution to the cost of replacing. Again if the loan was for a set period then vets and insurance fees would have to be discussed prior to the loan and agreed upon before the contracts were signed. As an owner though I would not expect to be financially responsible for the costs of vet fees ( or excess) should the horse be injured or become ill as a result of negligence by the loaner and would duly claim these costs from the loaner if they were not forthcoming with the money at the appropriate time.
As an owner though I would be checking upon the horse's condition from time to time regardless of the length of the loan agreement to make sure that its welfare needs were being met.
If you part loan or share a horse then the part loaner/sharer should be responsible for paying any reasonable costs towards the upkeep of the horse as previously agreed with the owner. The normal upkeep costs of the horse whether at grass, diy ( stabled) or livery should be factored into the costs. The cheaper the upkeep then the cheaper the contribution of the sharer/part loaner in my opinion. Feed, supplements and farrier costs should also be included in the calculation. As should a contribution for tack and grooming equipment and miscellaneous items be considered if the part loaner/sharer loses items or breaks them through negligence.
If the sharer has been at fault for whatever reason then they should be expected to pay respectable costs for the item(s). Obviously allowances need to be made for general wear and tear of items used.
As far as vet fees are concerned for horses that have a sharer/part loaner then it should be up to the owner to pay for these costs but they could also factor a reasonable yearly maintenance figure into the contribution they ask for, should they so wish. If the horse was injured or became ill due to negligence or the rider acting against the owner's wishes in respect of a prior agreement to riding and care arrangements then in my opinion they should pay for the total costs of the vets fees or else the sum of the excess fee if the horse is going to be subject to an insurance claim for vets fees. Think that is everything?
 
We loaned a mare out a couple of years ago, i sent her with good tack and rugs, the loanee (distant family member)dropped the saddle and damaged the tree and seat,was it insured by her - no, but it should have been. A new saddle is far cheaper than a legal argument, the marewas found in poor condition on last visit so was taken home.
Why is it we as horse people find it so easy to loan live animals to virtual strangers and then to hand over high value goods as well,i think we must be completeley mental.
And in answer to the question the loanee should take full responsibility for the animal and its requirements whilst it is in their care.
 
I think i'd want to have some input. For example a new saddle. I'd want to make sure my horse had a well fitting saddle. If left to the loan home you might end up with a horse that they'd finished with that had problems that it didn't have when it went. So i think to a certain extent that I wouldn't want the loan home to be providing everything. I would want them to use the tack provided my me as the owner.
 
I have loaned a horse and a pony and would never do it again. The pony wasnt shod for 12 weeks and when i visited i was really p1ssed off and he seemed depressed. This was despite references and a written contract. So i bought him home. The horse was a companion on permanent loan and i visited him regularly until one day he had disappeared, they had got rid of him despite us saying we wanted to have him back if they ever didnt want him anymore . It took us 3 months to find him! That time we didnt have a contract because it was a good friend of a good friend. We learnt a BIG lesson from that.
 
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So why do others have a different view? It normally seems to be with vets fees and buying saddles i.e. higher value costs. If i had a pound for every time i heard (including on here)someone say 'my horse is 'only' on loan so i dont want to buy a new saddle' I would be minted! Why does a loan horse not deserve a comfortable saddle any less than an owned horse?

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No idea - agree with your point though. The long term keeping costs are greater than purchase costs in most cases.

I think I've paid about 10X the purchase cost in keeping my horse.

I can see an argument with expecting a saddle to come with a horse on short term loan, but if not obviously you should get a proper one that fits.
 
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if you loan a horse then you are responsible for vets fees,

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I thought the best thing about loaning was that you could just drop it off back home as the owner's problem when it breaks and go and get another free horse from someone else.
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I think i'd want to have some input. For example a new saddle. I'd want to make sure my horse had a well fitting saddle. If left to the loan home you might end up with a horse that they'd finished with that had problems that it didn't have when it went. So i think to a certain extent that I wouldn't want the loan home to be providing everything. I would want them to use the tack provided my me as the owner.

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Good point
 
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if you loan a horse then you are responsible for vets fees,

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shocked.gif
I thought the best thing about loaning was that you could just drop it off back home as the owner's problem when it breaks and go and get another free horse from someone else.
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Lots of people actually think that though! A very selfish attitude, shows no morals and no true love for the horse.
 
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I have loaned a horse and a pony and would never do it again. The pony wasnt shod for 12 weeks and when i visited i was really p1ssed off and he seemed depressed. This was despite references and a written contract. So i bought him home. The horse was a companion on permanent loan and i visited him regularly until one day he had disappeared, they had got rid of him despite us saying we wanted to have him back if they ever didnt want him anymore . It took us 3 months to find him! That time we didnt have a contract because it was a good friend of a good friend. We learnt a BIG lesson from that.

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It's a shame experiences like this put people off as there are also good and responsible loan homes available. I hope to be one!
 
Not that i've ever loaned out or loaned a horse but..

if the animal isnt rideable/needs corrective surgery for which it isnt insured for, then no i wouldn't expect to pay for it...and would terminate my agreement.

At the end of the day,the animal doesnt belong to me, i'm not the name on the passport, so no, i certainly wouldn't pay for it.

Am assuming this is a follow on from a thread i replied to earlier.

If however the bills were for run of the mill health issues which Horses get from time to time, then yes i would pay, i.e routine vaccs/AB's/Danilon..
Not surgery...no way.
 
to look at this from anouther angle, you could loan a horse school it compete it, win with it, buy nice saddle, increase the value of said horse, owner says. want horse back now. what are you left with? used saddle half the value time spent and sadness
 
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if you loan a horse then you are responsible for vets fees,

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shocked.gif
I thought the best thing about loaning was that you could just drop it off back home as the owner's problem when it breaks and go and get another free horse from someone else.
tongue.gif
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Lots of people actually think that though! A very selfish attitude, shows no morals and no true love for the horse.

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I don't think so.

If the animal was sold, then there wouldn't be a problem.

Some owners view loaning as a "penny and the bun" situation..they just cant bear to sell the horse, but dont want the expense of keeping it.
if the horse was sold on, and became poorly, then yes, its theresponsibility of the purchaser.
 
I agree to a certain extent but loaners often want it both ways too. They want a horse when it gives them something but if it needs something back they send it home. Loaning a horse isnt always because an owner doesnt want to pay anymore but in the horses best interests because for example, the owner can no longer ride or physically look after the horse.
 
Mine is on loan and i pay for everything, livery/insurance/vetbills etc etc iv bough all her rugs, most her tack etc... but what I've bought wont go back with her
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Mine is on loan and i pay for everything, livery/insurance/vetbills etc etc iv bough all her rugs, most her tack etc... but what I've bought wont go back with her
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Thats fair enough
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I agree to a certain extent but loaners often want it both ways too. They want a horse when it gives them something but if it needs something back they send it home. Loaning a horse isnt always because an owner doesnt want to pay anymore but in the horses best interests because for example, the owner can no longer ride or physically look after the horse.

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Oh gosh, of course they do.

As i said it works both ways...but some owners DO offload, and some loaners too when to going gets tough.

I'm just saying it's not a position i'd want to be in either way.
 
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to look at this from anouther angle, you could loan a horse school it compete it, win with it, buy nice saddle, increase the value of said horse, owner says. want horse back now. what are you left with? used saddle half the value time spent and sadness

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Thats why contracts are so important, to set out the requirements of owner and loaner and cover expectations.

There are examples of both owner and loaner being selfish, with the horse stuck in the middle
 
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to look at this from anouther angle, you could loan a horse school it compete it, win with it, buy nice saddle, increase the value of said horse, owner says. want horse back now. what are you left with? used saddle half the value time spent and sadness

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Completely agree with this.
Although I've never loaned a horse, I have helped people out for up to 2 years at a time. In all but one, this was an amicable agreement from which both parties benefited. However, one horse would rear up whilst jumping and was pretty dangerous on the roads. After months of perseverance I managed to have her hacking happily on a long rein and jumping a small course without batting an eyelid (she had the scope to go futher, but I have long since lost my jumping bottle). One day went up to find a letter from the owner saying that they wished to terminate our agreement. The owner had previously been too scared to do much with the horse, but after I had put in all the hard work she went off competing most weekends
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I am thinking of loaning in the near future as a stepping stone to ownership, but sometimes I wonder if it's worth the hassle...
 
I would always pay basic vets fees e.g. vaccs and as I would be insured my insurance could pay on more expensive treatments e.g. kicks etc. But anything more serious than that I expect the owner would want to be notified and be involved in any decision making and if thats the case they should pay for it.

IMO If the owner doesn't want responsibility for the horse they should sell it not loan it.
 
The arrangement we have at our yard(riding school mainly but ponies are on loan to kids from the owner of the yard) is if the pony is injured whilst kid is riding then they pay full vets fees,if pony is injured when in riding school lesson then owner pays and if pony is injured in field then it is a 1/2 and 1/2 split. As many people have said as long as it is set down to begin with then issues can be minimised .
 
I don't think there's any hard-and-fast answers to this, and I think the details do depend on if the loan is short-term or can be terminated at short notice, or if it's a long-term or permanent loan. I agree it's best if both parties are in agreement on what the terms of the loan are, and that it's best to do this in writing.

The Spooky Pony came to me as a loan pony. It was agreed that I pay for his livery, farrier, and routine vet, and the former owner would pay for insurance. She would provide a saddle and one rug, and I got everything else for him. If there had been major unforeseen expenses, I expect we would have talked it over as the situation evolved. As it turned out, I bought him a few months later.

If I were to loan out a horse, I'd probably be a nightmare for the loaner, because I would be a total control-freak about how it was kept, etc. I know this, because I know myself, but speaking from the other side as a former loaner, I was glad to be allowed to arrange things as I saw fit for the pony. I wanted to do a few things (keep him out 24/7, go the barefoot route) that not every owner would have agreed to.
 
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