A legal/ loan type question. Really just need advice

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Jesstickle

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So I'm going to try and keep this brief but it probably won't work

I loan one of my horses from someone. They are supposed to pay the livery bill each month and I pay everything else. My 'half' is considerably bigger than theirs!

They have not been paying the livery. I don't know how much they owe but it's been ongoing since at least Christmas and the YO is threatening eviction. I can not afford and will not pay the outstanding bill.

If they are evicted I have no idea who will look after the horse or how it will be afforded. Or where he'll go.

Horses owner is rather unwell at the moment and although I have emailed I don't expect to get a response (I know all this because YM, who isn't YO, told me today to see if I can do anything, not from speaking to owner)

What do I do? I am worried for the horses sake really.

In my email I said I'd happily sell him on their behalf but I know I won't be allowed to.

Suggestions?
 
Sorry to hear that you are going through this at the moment. Is there anything written in to your loan/contract about non payment of livery fees? Does the owner have a written contract/agreement with the livery yard?

I guess at the end of the day you will just have to leave the owner and the livery owners to sort out the situation if you are not prepared to pay the livery bill - how likely is the YO to actually evict the horse? It's not an easy thing to do.
 
They have a contract with the yard. I don't have one with them (couldn't get one out of them although they agreed in principle they never got round to it. Spot a theme yet?)

I don't know if they'd actually evict the horse. Quite possibly yes. They're snotty farmers who don't actually like horses much!

I would pay the bill but I literally don't have the money and my OH would go absolutely nuts. And rightly so in fairness. I'm going to inherit some money soon and I guess then I could offer to buy him but I don't know if it'll be soon enough and I don't know that they'd sell to me.

O well. I will try calling horse's owner's husband and see if I can make any progress about what we can do.
 
Sorry to hear you are in a bit of a sticky one... Don't really have any advice as such, I can understand easily why you won't pay the outstanding bill, but is there any merit in paying for current livery? I mean, it will at least keep the YOs a bit happier and might give you some time to work things out?
You say the owner is not very well, is it a temporary or more permanent thing?
 
I suspect they are unlikely to evict the horse as then they lose the only asset they are likely to be able to sell.

I don't know what the procedure is for YO's selling horses in lieu of payment but there must be numerous threads on here about it. My guess is they just have to clear the outstanding livery bill.
 
Could you afford to pay the livery bill from here-on-in? The YO might be prepared to keep the horse on the yard if the bill had stopped mounting, which would then mean that you could leave the question of the outstanding bill to be sorted out between the owner and the YO.
 
Martlin, I did try and say I would pay the bills from now on but OH was pretty adamant that I don't. (ultimately it would be him paying it as I don't really have the spare cash at the end of the month) He said that we could do that if we could sell the horse at the end of it but not if ultimately he still isn't my property. ie if I want to spend my inheritance on him and we can persuade them to sell to us then I can have him and we'll find the money for his livery from somewhere but unless he's our 'asset' he thinks its a bad idea.

JT, I think it has to be in the contract that non payment of bills = seizure of asset (but only from on here, I don't know for sure). It definitely isn't in our livery agreement that this is the case.

Realistically I can't do much. I guess I can call them and see if they can pay the bill and hope that by the time I have the cash I can offer to buy and if they won't sell to me I guess I'll move my other one to a different yard so I don't have to see it and wash my hands of it.

Would it be really off to get my OH to call owner's hubby on my behalf? I'm a push over and not good on the phone and will just say that I'm paying the bill and then OH will most likely leave me! Well he wouldn't because he's a saint but he would be pretty darn cross.
 
again, I can completely see your OH's point. I was thinking more about a one off, for this month only kind of thing, just to give you a bit more time and maybe make you feel a bit more comfortable on the yard - as it can't be pleasant knowing that ''your'' horse owes money/is a non paying resident.
And yes, I would get your OH to ring - I always do that :o
 
I get mine to make awkward phone calls too, and then hang around in a dither in case he doesn't say the right thing.
 
There is something called the Innkeepers Law (or very similiar) it means that if a horse is left on someones property they have a lien over it until all reasonable costs are paid i.e. livery, vets feed etc.

In order to sell the horse to recover the livery they need to place an advert in a local paper giving whatever details they know about the owner, details of the 'property' ie the horse/tack etc and when these will be sold. I think the YO/YM may be required to send recorded letters to known address stating full details of bills, intention to sell and a reasonable time scale for owner to respond- at least this shows they have done all they could to sort out repayment etc without taking further action.

I am almost 100% sure that the horse/tack would have to be sent to an auction/sale not privately sold. It is very unlikely in this current climate that the YO/YM will recup all costs as horses arent selling that well at auction. However, it may be that you could buy the horse cheaper then if dealt with privately.

As said previously there are probably loads of posts about this on here!
 
I maybe wrong here, but i was near certain that the lieu clause cannot be used unless it was i the original contact and yo and livery both signed to agreee that is can be used if payment is over due from livery by x amount of time which is usually 3 months.
 
I tried to buy a horse with same problem, I offered the money which was enough to cover cost of outstanding livery, but owner denied even owning the darn thing, later it was sold to a dealer for £800 , to clear the debt, plus legal costs.
Your yard owner will not want any further complications, best if you offer to buy at cost of the livery outstanding, but state that you will give the money to YO and make sure you get a proper receipt etc. you can then keep horse and find a part sharer, you say you are paying more than the actual livery cost, I am not sure how this is working out, do you mean you are paying for hay and feed and shoes and insurance etc?
 
MrsD123 said:
, do you mean you are paying for hay and feed and shoes and insurance etc?
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Yep, this exactly.They are basically getting full schooling livery for £80. If they can't afford that I can't see them being able to afford him anywhere else frankly.

Anywho, I know it's a fairly hopeless situation but thank you all for taking the time to answer. I still haven't had a reply to my email. Not sure how long to leave it before trying to track down a phone number to call. I don't want to harass people. Especially when they aren't well.

Am seriously considering sounding out my father for a loan to offer to buy the horse (anyone who follows my posts will know how little I want to do that though!). I'd be happy to pay them what he's worth. Well what he's worth to me given that I've poured time and money into him. I don't even really think they'd sell to me though. In honesty he'd probably only stay until next spring and then I'd sell him but at least I'd find him a nice home!
 
When I worked on a rs and livery yard there was a pony on full liv that ran up a huge bill, once it got to nearly 2 grand yo padlocked the stable and refused access to horse he eventually got tho owner of pony to hand over pony for payment of livery. The pony was sold and yo recovered costs.
I have also known of another yard taking someones tack and holding it till bill is paid.
The other option is can you not agree to pay outstanding livery off in installments and see about buying the horse off the owners and state as you are clearing ther livery bill that will be payment for the horse which is going to yo
 
This is a sellers market, and you should be able to buy it at a reduced price, sorry, but the horse owner has shed responsibility for the animal, and has handed its costs and its care to you, and to the Yard Owner. We have all had times in life things get too much for us, but a horse is like a child, an ongoing responsibility.
I rather assume the owner is an adult.
 
The owner is an adult yes. Although they have mental health problems so am not entirely sure how legally responsible they are right now or where that leaves me. It's all a bit of a mess frankly and I'm sorry I got caught up in it. I did know it would end up being a headache due to their complete lack of responsibility. This is why OH is loathe for me to get more involved than I already am unless the horse is mine!

Will talk to YM about what is actually going to happen and see if I can get them to persuade YO to do something other than evict the horse. Perhaps threaten with small claims or with confiscating property instead.
 
Err, the above "advice" about buying the horse off the YO for the cost of the outstanding livery overlooks the fact that exercise of a right of lien can only be done under certain circumstances and where certain legal requirements are met. You cannot do it just because its a convenient solution! If you did such a thing, you would risk the owner coming back and reclaiming their property at a later stage.

IMHO its the YO's problem at present. They have the contract with the pony's owner. I would leave them to sort it out.
 
Which is why I want to offer to buy the horse off the owner M. I am merely suggesting that rather than threaten to evict it they might have more luck threatening to impound it. Much more of a threat there isn't there? Saying we'll evict you means they just get off scott free as they take the horse somewhere else and walk away from the bill.

I dunno. I know it's up to YO but they're non communicative farmers and I would happily smooth things over if I could in any way.
 
Mithras said:
Err, the above "advice" about buying the horse off the YO for the cost of the outstanding livery overlooks the fact that exercise of a right of lien can only be done under certain circumstances and where certain legal requirements are met. You cannot do it just because its a convenient solution! If you did such a thing, you would risk the owner coming back and reclaiming their property at a later stage.

IMHO its the YO's problem at present. They have the contract with the pony's owner. I would leave them to sort it out.
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Now, now, Mithras! Don't let actual law complicate the advice of the great NL legal advisors :D

JT - aside from further attempts to contact the owner and making an offer on the horse I don't think there's much that you can do :( The issue is between the owner and the livery yard.
 
I would not offer to pay the livery as this just means that the owners can put off dealing with this for a while longer and there will be an expectation you can do it again. It is also enormously unfair to you and your OH to put you in that position.

Before your OH rings the people, I would suggest you get the following info.
1. Copy of invoice of outstanding bills from YO so there can be no dispute over the amount.
2. Horse at market evaluation. So look for similiar horses in horsemart/H&H.Horsequest to get an idea of value. Copy the ads into a document. Do not over price yourself (i.e you have worked the horse and think it would do xx, you pay for what the horse has done). Again this means that there can be no dispute over the actual value.
3. Point out that as livery charges are accruing on a monthly basis, your offer for the horse will have to decrease by that value
4. Give them a time to respond, i.e till the end of July. Otherwise tell them that the offer is rescinded and you will give them notice to take the horse back and cover their own costs
5. Tell the YO exactly what you are looking to do. If nothing else, you are looking to try to help and take charge and will feel more comfortable yourself when at the yard
6. Armed with that, you can then make a fair offer to the owner whereby you have done the legwork and shown you are not trying to stitch them up either.

I have suggested you get proof of value and put in a timescale because that will shorten the process. I appreciate it must be very hard if the owners are already having problems but if you have clearly demonstrated you have put the legwork into be fair then it could well be a weight off their mind too.


Good luck!
 
thank you Luci. Seeing an action plan written down like that at least gives me a jumping off point. This is why I don't phone people. I would have done nothing and just called up and ended up in a right pickle! Much better to have a plan and the facts

First things first I will have to ask my father if he'll lend me the money. No point offering to buy the horse if I then can't is there?!

Puppy and Mithras, don't worry. I promise I wont do anything illegal. I'm hardly known as a rule breaker at the best of times. Never mind breaking the law
 
I'm slightly concerned that you're thinking of buying a horse when you yourself said you can't afford to pay the livery. I know you said you're inheriting some money but unless you're coming into quite a substantial amount of money I would reccommend you think carefully about how you could afford the ongoing costs of the horse once the inheritance runs out.
I don't want to put a downer on things - it just rang alarm bells.

Other than that - no advice I'm afraid, but good luck.
 
As a legal person I think luci's advice is good. Open dialogue with the YO and let them see that keeping the horse on the yard is the best way of getting money.
 
little_critter said:
I'm slightly concerned that you're thinking of buying a horse when you yourself said you can't afford to pay the livery. I know you said you're inheriting some money but unless you're coming into quite a substantial amount of money I would reccommend you think carefully about how you could afford the ongoing costs of the horse once the inheritance runs out.
I don't want to put a downer on things - it just rang alarm bells.

Other than that - no advice I'm afraid, but good luck.
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Well, yes it is a rather substantial amount of money. And I can ( or rather we can) afford to pay his livery going forwards, what I can't and won't do is pay the outstanding £1500 bill. Fear not. He is already my financial responsibility save for the £80 a month livery as is my own horse and I haven't starved either of them to death yet! They both enjoy a quality of life I can only dream of :D

O and Puppy, thank you for asking about Nits :)

She is back in the field and is supposed to be having some ultrasound/physio (but vet and physio need to liaise and are currently playing voicemail tennis!) to see if we can get things moving that way. If not then we are back to square one and she will have to have the surgery.

At least she isn't stuck in her box trying to kill herself and me though. Plus I was advised to work her so her lunging is coming on a treat. If she ever gets mended she'll not be far from backing by the time we're done :)
 
Ok - fair enough, just thought I'd check. I don't blame you for not wanting to pay off someone else's debt, it just leaves you in a very tricky position.
I hope your offer to buy works out well and the mess is sorted out quickly.
 
jesstickle said:
O and Puppy, thank you for asking about Nits :)

She is back in the field and is supposed to be having some ultrasound/physio (but vet and physio need to liaise and are currently playing voicemail tennis!) to see if we can get things moving that way. If not then we are back to square one and she will have to have the surgery.

At least she isn't stuck in her box trying to kill herself and me though. Plus I was advised to work her so her lunging is coming on a treat. If she ever gets mended she'll not be far from backing by the time we're done :)
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Oh jolly good :) That sounds a big improvement :)

One of mine made really good progress when she had ultrasound treatment.
 
L_C, I'm sure if the horse could talk and wasn't a jerk he'd thank you for your concern. Certainly better that someone asks than I do something numpty-ish! Fear not though. I fully appreciate the cost implications of horse ownership. Sadly. It is a bit of a depressing thing to have a grip on! :D

Puppy, glad someone has tried ultrasound. I can't find anyone with any experience at all. I'm just doing what the vet tells me. I figure though that if they can use it to break up gall stones it might, just might, work on horrible foreign body responses which have solidified in hocks. You never know!
 
jesstickle said:
Puppy, glad someone has tried ultrasound. I can't find anyone with any experience at all. I'm just doing what the vet tells me. I figure though that if they can use it to break up gall stones it might, just might, work on horrible foreign body responses which have solidified in hocks. You never know!
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Yes, my mare had a few treatments of it, at Rossdales, for ligament damage to her back and it sorted the problem out even though they can't fully explain how it works. Good luck to you and Nitty. Let us know how it goes. :)
 
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