a little update re epsm diet and end of line with my boy

[clairefeekerry1]

hi all.

for those who have been following my posts- i am now 10 days into the EPSM diet. transition went well and is eating all up. i have noticed a slight difference in picking up his feet and i *think* his trot is getting a little better. no funny hopping this week and we did manage to trot down the long side of the school without any weird hopping. his trot is by no means right, but no funny hopping. however, the last few times i've ridden he's been increasingly stumbly. esp in the front and walking downhill is a real problem for him. worse than before. its like he is just shuffling along and i'm worried he's going to slip as he basically is finding it very hard to walk down hill or on uneven ground. so, i'm a bit worried things kind of seem worse???

 

[cptrayes]

This is beginning to sound neurological to me

I really feel for you, you've had a hell of a time. I hope, to be honest, that he goes worse really quickly so that you can have it all over and done with. It would be better if he got well, of course, but that's beginning to look terribly unlikely

Does anyone know what tests there are for neurological problems and how reliable they are?

 

[LucyPriory]

Have you joined the EPSM yahoo group? Well worth it IMO.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSM/

10 days is no time at all - takes some horses months

you probably know this but just in case - exercise has to be reintroduced very carefully with in hand work first.

the yahoo group has info on this and much more.

 

[clairefeekerry1]

Hi cp. He's had a full neuro work up at the royal vet college with a neurology specialist and they passed him with no abnormalities. I'm really worried now that we've missed something like lami or navicular. The stumbling is more like his shoulder giving way. He never trips. I dont know what any other neuro tests can be done

 

[clairefeekerry1]

Thank you lucy. Did have a look at the group but thought it was old. He hasn't actually been confirmed as espm but thought i'd try as a last ditch attempt. I know ten days is nothing but whilst one thing has got a little better other things seem to be appearing now. He's never been this odd walking downhill. I've noticed in the field he does it a bit too. Looks like he's got really sore feet.

 

[Bryndu]

Hi...I havn't been following this post so sorry for butting in...but picked up on the tripping thing.......have you had his heart checked?
Mine had an infection which affected his heart and caused him to trip and collapse when being ridden.
Had antibios and a year off and fine now.
Best wishes
Bryndu

 

[clairefeekerry1]

Thank you bryndu. He's been at 3 different vet clinics with random gait abnormalities when ridden. He never ever trips. And this has started since he's been on a diet for possible espm. I dont thing he's ever had his heart checked.

 

[Bryndu]

Thank you bryndu. He's been at 3 different vet clinics with random gait abnormalities when ridden. He never ever trips. And this has started since he's been on a diet for possible espm. I dont thing he's ever had his heart checked.

Definitely worth a shot.....if only to rule it out....my boy's heart was 3 beating then missing at rest and if you just asked him to move over it rocketed.

If it helps I had a horse diagnosed with a brain tumour and the symptoms (just what I have seen on this post) you describe are nothing like what he had...sadly he didn't make it.

Best of luck
Bryndu

 

[cptrayes]

CFK you can buy a stethoscope or maybe borrow one and listen to his heart yourself. It won't tell you if it is OK, but you will clearly hear if it isn't beating right or if he has any bad heart murmur, and at least you'll know quickly and cheaply.

"Really sore feet" sounds very odd. But I have heard of EMS, as opposed to EPSM horses pushed "over the edge" into laminitis by a high oil diet. If he was laminitic, though, I would expect him to be much worse uphill, with leverage on his toes, than downhill where he can get the weight into his heels.

Spavins do show downhill early on, usually, but I am at a lost to know how on earth all the vet checks you've had could possibly have missed spavins.

 

[clairefeekerry1]

Can navicular cause all these symptoms i've been experiences. I only ask as on my first vet report there is a mention of a small spur on his right navicular bone but as he does a weird hoppy movement behind it was discounted as wasn't showing symptoms.

 

[cptrayes]

I've known a few and they have never been affected behind, only in front. I understand that it is possible to get it in the hind feet, but I've never heard of one myself.

 

[LucyPriory]

Not me personally, but a colleague has worked on a horse with one hind foot with laminitis - go figure!

Currently working on a horse that had been diagnosed with just about everything over the years, except lami. Turns out to be chronic LGL type feet with a 'nice' bit of nail bind thrown in. Now sound.

EPSM group is by the way very active and you can get personalised advice usually within 24 hours.

But bear in mind my grasp of technology and the internet is rubbish and I may have sent you a link that sucks. I am particularly rubbish at Yahoo.

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

Stumbling and reluctance to go downhill is classic symptoms of DJD/nacicular syndrome. Often BOTH front feet are involved to pretty much the same degree. So the horse is bilaterally lame so you don't see the familiar lameness signs. Nerve block 1 foot and you would see it immediately in the other foot.

 

[foxy1]

It still looks the back end to me; I have watched the video you posted over and over! He is taking 'even' strides in front, ok they are not long but he wouldn't if his back end isn't pushing. This would fit with him struggling to walk downhill.

Is there such thing as spinal cord damage or does that come under the heading of Neurological?

I really feel for you. I don't know what I would do in your shoes, you must be going out of your mind

 

[clairefeekerry1]

To be fair both front feet were blocked at different stages with no difference so that probably rules them out. You can get spinal cord damage. Would have thought that would have shown on the neuro tests but maybe not. I will give him the next couple of months on the espm diet and see how that goes and if no improvement call it a day. Really bugs me that I may never find out whats wrong with him.

 

[BethH]

When I first read this it reminded me of my old horse and I was in complete agreement with CP Trayes. It sounded neurological. We think he had issues controlling his front legs and over a 6-12mth period it got worse to the point the front legs would just collapse, we tried everything and funnily enough acupuncture seemed to give him some relief but obviously couldn't solve the issue and we lost him and never quite got to the bottom of it although he was 29 by this point. It seemed to start off with what appeared to be bad tripping until we realised his legs were slightly giving way - quite hard to tell the difference when you are on his back not the ground.

However just from your mention of not coping with hills does make me wonder about Kissing spines just to throw another complication in to the mix. The difficulty in movement you are describing sounds similar to my horse before he was diagnosed, he was tight and short behind bi-laterally meaning he was the same in front, he used to feel very bunched up and whilst my horse didn't hop as he preferred just to completely flip out I do know many other horses with this condition where hopping is an obvious sign, it can also cause other secondary symptoms like splints, spavins etc.

I am sure this has already been checked but thought it was worth a mention. I really hope you can get to the bottom of this it must be horrible to feel so helpless about it.

 

[clairefeekerry1]

Thank you beth for your input. He's had a bone scan which showed nothing on his spine and vets have said that nearly all kissing spine case's have some take up on the scan. I did have his spine x rayed at my request and there were no major abnormalities. One of the vertabrate was quite close but no where near touching. The royal vet college who have to be fair to them the most helpful say clinically there is virtually nothing wrong with him. They did say they could try tildren in his hock given a small improvement when the metatarsil was nerve blocked.

 

[EQUISCENE]

I am going through similar with my horse at the moment the specialist vets are really struggling as it is not a run of the mill case however one of them has hinted at EPSM in my case and said that the only way you can get this confirmed is by having a muscle biopsy taken.

 

[clairefeekerry1]

I've switched him over ve the epsm diet a week ago just in case and he's having a biopsy done next week. Is it 100 percent reliable do you know?

 

[EQUISCENE]

Yes I think it is reliable and THE only way to get confirmation, do you have any vids of your horses symptoms if you have please can you PM me a link and I will reciprocate with my vids for a comparison..

 

[kinglouis]

Hiya - can't believe we are both going round in circles still:-( I'd stick with the diet & see what the test results say, I've read it can take ages for the diet to take an effect on some horses & that the test is 100% reliable. Get that one out of the way then start panicing about the downhill stuff...justt ry fix one thing at a time for now otherwise you will be totally confused! Back to square one for us:-( She has wedges in her hind shoes to see if that stops whatever is catching her in canter...she is also allowed out...yippeee! Posted on here yesterday and someone had a horse with a similar problem in canter & they fixed it in the end with McTimoney???

Anyway PM me a full update.

xxx

 

[applecart14]

Hi cp. He's had a full neuro work up at the royal vet college with a neurology specialist and they passed him with no abnormalities. I'm really worried now that we've missed something like lami or navicular. The stumbling is more like his shoulder giving way. He never trips. I dont know what any other neuro tests can be done

How bizarre re: passing neuro tests. It sounds just like my wobblers horse, with the hopping and stumbling, especially when you say the stumbling is more like his shoulder giving way. My wobblers horse (late onset at aged 10) had the stumbling, but his forelegs also kind of shook, like his knee wouldn't 'lock' and it kind of shivered a little. Hard to explain, like a dither more than a shake. Is that what your horses leg looks like?

Just out of interest did your horse have finadyne at any point before the neuro tests? Just a thought as finadyne stabilised my horse to the point that he was able to go from completely ataxic grade 3 to 4 wobblers, to standing to travel 3 hours to Liverpool in the back of box.

 

[clairefeekerry1]

Hi. Thanks for your input. His stumbling is more like say if you maybe stepped on something sharp and sticky drew your foot away? Does that make sense. He never ever trips and never ties up. His front legs are fine. Never quiver or shake and never looks un coordinated. He def knows where all his feet are. In fact he actually passed his neuro tests with flying colours. And even tho he's hardly doing any work he can still leg yeild and rein back no problem. Never heard of that drug you mention so presume my horse hasn't had it but then i've never had Am issues travelling him or him tying up.

 

[Bryndu]

hi all.

for those who have been following my posts- i am now 10 days into the EPSM diet. transition went well and is eating all up. i have noticed a slight difference in picking up his feet and i *think* his trot is getting a little better. no funny hopping this week and we did manage to trot down the long side of the school without any weird hopping. his trot is by no means right, but no funny hopping. however, the last few times i've ridden he's been increasingly stumbly. esp in the front and walking downhill is a real problem for him. worse than before. its like he is just shuffling along and i'm worried he's going to slip as he basically is finding it very hard to walk down hill or on uneven ground. so, i'm a bit worried things kind of seem worse???

Hello again.....forgive me but I trawled back through your posts....watched the vid and then saw the feet pics.....may I ask how big your horse is, in hands?
Bryndu

 

[clairefeekerry1]

He is about 15 hands bryndu. Why do you ask?x

 

[MiCsarah]

Hi, dont really know the full story to this but my horse has a kind of hop and shuffle to his trot alot and can also have abit of a tranter (trot/canter stride). I am putting these down to his now diagnosed bone spavins which he is getting surgically fused next week. Everyone told me it maybe neurological or epsm but I think its from the pain/ aching he has from the spavins as when he is on 2 bute a day apart from the odd shuffle in his trot from time to time he is fine.

 

[clairefeekerry1]

Very interesting micsarah. He did have a slight improvement to a nerve block in his metatarsil so was given steroids in his hock but no improvement. How were they diagnosed? My horse has had bone scan which showed nothing and x rays of his hock showed minor bony changes. Are they they same as spavins? The vets said they were so minor they were barely worth treating. Also its been nearly 12 months with no improvement .

 

[Bryndu]

He is about 15 hands bryndu. Why do you ask?x

Ok this is a very long shot......but when I saw the size of your horses feet my immediate thought was...they seem to be way too small for the size of the horse.

Now I am no expert but it would seem the gait problems may be due to the fact your boy is now a triangle shape in that his body is the long end at the top and his feet the pointed bit at the bottom, which would mean he is struggling to get any balance.
What has intrigued me is that...thankfully no nueros have shown up, no kissing spines etc.
Have you considered an exceptional farrier to look at your boys feet?
You have obvioulsy spent a lot of time and money trying to get you boy diagnosed so how about giving Haydn Price a call? I have no experience of the guy but his CV below...I stole from Carl Hesters webpage.

I so hope this is helpful to you and wish you EVERY bit of luck in the world.

Bryndu

FARRIERS

Haydn Price. Following graduation with the Worshipful Company of Farriers in 1983, Haydn went on to deveop a farriery business specialising in shoeing performance horses. With a particular interest in equine lameness the practice developed a specialist Equine Referral Centre. With his interest in locomotion, in 2004 Haydn developed the Equinalysis Gait Analysis system, now used by World Class Performance.

Haydn is Consultant Farrier to the British Equestrian Federation and Team Farrier to the british Dressage and Show Jumping Teams.

As co-author of 'Shoeing for Performance' in 1986, it gave an opportunity to explain some of the more basic concepts of shoeing criteria along with some misconceptions in current shoeing treatment procedures. Haydn is a regular contributor to publications and research programmes, he also lectures internationally within Europe, America and Mexico.

Tel The Farrier Centre 01291 672826 Email: price.haydn@virgin.net

 

[LucyPriory]

I am going through similar with my horse at the moment the specialist vets are really struggling as it is not a run of the mill case however one of them has hinted at EPSM in my case and said that the only way you can get this confirmed is by having a muscle biopsy taken.

not quite accurate - it depends on breed - you can test some of them with 20 (ish) root hairs

check out Beth Valentine and Dr Kellon on this

 

[TarrSteps]

Re Finadyne, this is flunixin, a very effective NSAID, so if a horse reacts positively to it, that's a pretty clear indication that pain is at the root of the problem.

I don't understand the reluctance of vets to try a heavy duty course of pain relief before they pronounce a horse physically 'fine' and either decide it's behavioural or start investigating even more unusual causes. I know it's not a targeted diagnostic but at least it tells them the horse is in pain, not compromised in some other way.