a numpty asks - barefoot/unshod what's it all about?

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dorito

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ok.

I'm hopefully getting a mare on loan soon, she has been out of work and unshod for 4 years. and I am kind of wondering if I could/should leave shoes off, though she will be coming back to being ridden?

When I last had a horse 7 years ago, if you didn't shoe your horse you still had the same trim by the regular farrier, just left shoes off. I don't think it saved much money - new shoes were only a tenner or so more than 'removes'; but in general, saving money would be the reason.

now it appears there is a whole 'barefoot trimming' movement, done by specialist equine podiatrists (are these folk qualified/farriers as well?). it seems you need to support the barefootedness with diet and management, and hoof boots - which seem kind of expensive? this approach seems more elaborate than any conventional shoeing. it's all new to me; whilst the idea of holistic management sounds very laudable, am i wrong to smell a bit of a gimmick here?

not sure about the practicalities of the holistic approach when you have to fit in on a conventional livery yard.

feel free to enlighten my ignorance/reassure me that it's not as complicated/pricey as it sounds.:confused:
 
Mine's barefoot - Thoroughbred and will be living out until Christmas when he'll come in for a couple of months at night then go back out full time again. As for feed in the winter he gets literally a handful of chaff, carrots if I remember, a sprinkle of biotin and limestone flour to support his growing frame.

He's ridden four to six times a week, two of which can be three hour hacks and he's trimmed once every 6 - 8 weeks by the most excellent farrier. £20 (i'm in Yorkshire so vary it depending where you live I guess). He'll start competeing next year and he'll remain barefoot.

Good old fashioned approach!!
 
If she copes in work without shoes then leave them off- regular farrier trim every 6-8 weeks and see how it goes. If she doesnt cope, shoe her.... simples :)
 
It all depends on the horse and its grazing/management/feed: you have an advantage if no shoes on for years, and you are bringing it back in to work as you will have time to go at the rate appropriate to the feet.
Some farriers are better than others, but basically many would be out of business if they only charged owners for rasping of the feet, they make money from shoe-ing, and that is one biggy.
Barefoot trimmers are not usually registered farriers, but are specialists, they have to cover a a larger geographical area [usually] and charge a fair whack for their trimming and advice.
I am "an owner in transition", and found Feet First to be invaluable, but my horse is not yet ready to be ridden for hours on roads and tracks without shoes/boots, even though he has not had shoes on for four months.
There will be a great deal of controversy following your posting.
 
I should have said actually - mine came from a race yard, 3yr old. He threw his shoes after about 2 weeks and they ripped literally a quarter of his hoof off with them. So I decided I never ever wanted to see him go through the agony of that again. This happened in September last year and it took until May (7mths, just to scare you) for him to stop wimping and hobbling around over the slightest spec of dust. It of course took a lot of patience and understanding and the farrier to sort his feet out but it's been worth the effort. If you're shoes to barefoot it just takes time - my experience is that people give up on it too easily because its seems more hassle than its worth when you can't hack out at first. I'll not go into the technical sides that its probably better for the horse anyway - my farrier told me that shoeing a horse is like us (if you're a lady!) wearing massive stiletto shoes 24/7.

And the best thing is, you don't have to talk louder hacking in company (my friends is barefoot too) above the noise of hooves on the road as its so much quieter!! :D
 
If your horse has been shoeless for 4 years, she will probably have got used to it and have hardened her feet off.
I took the back shoes of my new mare at the end of Jan to introduce her to the herd and am hoping not to have to put them back on. She isn't too happy with the stony lane to leave the yard but is fine on the roads. Her previous farrier had said that she *needed* shoes, mine is happy to leave her without.

She had been fed a large quantity of hard feed (goodness knows why, she is far too fat) but is now on a diet of dried grass, pink powder, biotin with haylage as necessary on our poor grazing. I am not expecting her feet to be hardened off properly for quite some time but want to persevere.
I am certainly not a 'barefoot convert', we have shod, unshod and part-shod horses but can't see the point of putting shoes on, if horses can manage without. In the past horses working on the roads needed shoes to stop their feet wearing away too quickly, those working on farms were often left unshod.
My farrier charges £70 for a full set of shoes, £20 for a trim and adjustment between the 2 for part-shoeing.
I would not, under ANY circumstances use a so-called 'equine podiatrist'.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I am certainly not a 'barefoot convert', we have shod, unshod and part-shod horses but can't see the point of putting shoes on, if horses can manage without. In the past horses working on the roads needed shoes to stop their feet wearing away too quickly, those working on farms were often left unshod.
My farrier charges £70 for a full set of shoes, £20 for a trim and adjustment between the 2 for part-shoeing.
I would not, under ANY circumstances use a so-called 'equine podiatrist'.
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Exactly that
 
My welsh cob mare has been barefoot for 11 years
1/2 shire (I was told she could never manage barefoot) had been so for 8 years now

they have been tended to in varying proportions / times by two farriers, one trimmer and myself ;) Yes there are some trimmers that are not good, just as there are some farriers / vets /dentist etc :rolleyes:.......... but a master farrier looked at my horses feet not knowing their history / who had done what and said they looked good !!!!!!!!!!!

In that time Taz had done endurance and has been driven which involved lots roadwork, just as much if not more than many shod horses.

It is not that complicated to manage a horse holistically as regards feet... a good healthy diet with loads forage with feet worked over a variety of surfaces is a good start. The main myths / anticipated problems many people come against is when they take shoes off horses in the winter and turn them out into just field with very little work. The feet then dont get the chance to harden off so folk think their horse will not manage barefoot.



Many horses manage transition without hoofboots dorito and as your mare has been barefoot already 4 years she may not need them unless the workload re roadwork you do wears away feet before growth catches up (and that would have to be alot of roadwork !!!!).

Its really not that pricey ;)
 
My horse has been barefoot since last December,
Sometimes he is footy for a few days after being trimmed. Farrier is coming Saturday and I'm taking Harvey on holiday for a week on Sunday. Do I need to ask farrier to perhaps trim a bit less? Theain reason I took his shoes off was due to bad tripping which has improved dramatically since shoeless.
 
We've had a few huge threads about this recently, you might find searching for "barefoot" gives you some interesting reading.
 
Ditto MrsD123

Shoe when your horse is footie, not because it has short feet. Alternatively, ask us to help you discover why your horse is footie and stay barefoot.

Don't expect too much too soon. Build it up gradually and with a horse who's had no shoes on for years you may never have a problem or need boots.

"Equine Podiatry" is one school of trimming, not all trimmers are EP's, and those that are can be either American EPs or British EPs. The other main two are UKNHCP and ANHCP. There are good and bad trimmers, so try to find one with experience of hardworking barefoot horses if you go for a trimmer. Likewise, there are some farriers who sore barefoot horses by preparing their foot as if for a shoe, and those who are good at barefoot trims. Again, if you go with a farrier, try to find one who already has hardworking barefoot horses on his books.
 
CeeBee said:
My horse has been barefoot since last December,
Sometimes he is footy for a few days after being trimmed.
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He should not be. Ask your farrier why he is repeating a trim which makes your horse sore.
Once is a mistake. Twice is negligent. Three times is inexcusable. The main way that farriers lame barefoot horses is by trimming sole/toe callous to "balance" the foot. This is what they do to prepare for a shoe. A barefoot horse should not normally have its sole callous touched at all.



CeeBee said:
The main reason I took his shoes off was due to bad tripping which has improved dramatically since shoeless.
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This is very common and often happens within days, or even immediately!
 
I personally have never had any of my six ponies, over the past 10 years shod and none of them have been lame or had any sort of foot problems. They are natives, live out all year round and receive only a short measure of Topspec balancer to supplement their diet. They are ridden 2 - 5 times per week, quite a bit of which is on the roads but not sure if they could manage without shoes if they were doing hours of roadwork, day after day. Having said that, my view is the natural shock-absorption of the hoof is far better than the pounding and concussion caused by metal shoes.
I use a registered farrier for trimming, very reasoanbly priced at £20. Not sure I agree with an earlier post about farriers only making money out of shoeing - if you look at the time taken to remove and fit shoes, the cost of the shoes and the fuel/furnace required I should think the hourly income from trimming (which usually takes less than 10 mins), is probably far higher for less effort. Not a farrier though so don't know for certain. I'd say, definitely try the barefoot option, especially as your part way-there already.
 
Thanks all; some good sense here.

I am hoping to feed her unmolassed stuff, good haylage, no cereals, so that sounds in tune with barefooting. maybe some biotin.

Not planning much/any road work but many of the farm tracks will be concrete/tarmac and also plenty of flinty downland bridleways.

If anyone can recommend a farrier who can keep horses in work and barefoot, covering West Sussex (BN14 worthing area) - please pm me. Likewise any that you would avoid.

It feels extra numpty-ish to ask, but does Keratex or any other hoof-hardening potion have a part to play here? (runs and hides)
 
horserugsnot4u said:
I use a registered farrier for trimming, very reasoanbly priced at £20. Not sure I agree with an earlier post about farriers only making money out of shoeing - if you look at the time taken to remove and fit shoes, the cost of the shoes and the fuel/furnace required I should think the hourly income from trimming (which usually takes less than 10 mins), is probably far higher for less effort. Not a farrier though so don't know for certain. I'd say, definitely try the barefoot option, especially as your part way-there already.
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Yes I agree, that they are making more money per hoof per minute as it were, however they would need twice as many customers if most horses were barefoot in order to clear £30 to £40K per annum.
 
Mine is unshod/barefoot too now and he's supposed to "never" be able to be without shoes after laminitis... however, we now traverse the Cotswold Way with ease and gallop in the stubble with quite a turn of speed.

It's much cheaper (not that it was a cost issue - the decision was because he had navi and was continuously lame) and regard the feed... less is more and there is no *special* diet... it requires some thought about WHAT you feed, not how much.

I've had an EP trim him and a farrier. They're colleagues and agree on many of of the same principles. It's nice to see some collaboration at last rather than all this shoes vs no shoes malarkey.
 
dorito said:
Thanks all; some good sense here.

I am hoping to feed her unmolassed stuff, good haylage, no cereals, so that sounds in tune with barefooting. maybe some biotin.

Not planning much/any road work but many of the farm tracks will be concrete/tarmac and also plenty of flinty downland bridleways.

If anyone can recommend a farrier who can keep horses in work and barefoot, covering West Sussex (BN14 worthing area) - please pm me. Likewise any that you would avoid.

It feels extra numpty-ish to ask, but does Keratex or any other hoof-hardening potion have a part to play here? (runs and hides)
Click to expand...

Many of us find magnesium oxide daily helps our horses stay solid on all surfaces. It is linked to insulin use and nerve activity. I feed 25 grammes a day of calmag which I buy for £9 for 25kg from a farm supplies shop.

Formaldehyde (main ingredient in Keratex) has apparently been shown to cause damage to live bones inside the foot. There were some postings about it recently on uknhcp.myfastforum.org

You should not need to use a hoof hardener in a horse that has been without shoes that long, provided you get the diet right.

Can you ask a local farmer if they have an analysis of the grazing around you? And of your haylage? If you are high in iron and/or manganese then you can get problems with lack of copper, which can cause poor use of insulin (and anaemia, oddly) and consequent footiness. Other imbalances can cause problems too, but that seems to be the commonest one, and I supplement copper because of high manganese.

You may find that your horse goes footie if allowed too much grazing and many of us keep the sensitive ones off the grass from mid morning to mid/late evening, when the sugars are highest.

Some people may warn you against haylage but I use it with no problem and have had three laminitics (one full-on, two suspect) on it with no problems.
 
I have finally made the transition, and after making sure I had the diet right, and some magnesium in there (she is a flat footed TB after all and I thought it wouldn't hurt), when the fronts came off, my TB mare walked away sound even over stoney ground - unheard of considering what she used to be like if she lost a shoe (imagine leg hanging off crippled). THis was a total contrast to the trauma we went through with the backs (as I said crippled). She will need a trim, but I wanted her to get used to the "new feet" and do an element of self trimming to do before I let the farrier loose on her.

We are at a livery yard, and seem to manage OK. There is loads of information out there and I suggest you do a barefoot search on here.

Knowing what I know now, I wish I had never had shoes put on my mare 5 years ago but this was considered routine/ normal if anyone ever suggested barefoot they were laughed at. ridiculed, told that the feet would wear out!!!
 
If the horse is fine without shoes, leave them off. Its better in the long run- less navicular, less laminitis less hoof problems generally. Hammering nails through them for years isnt great for their feet!!

However not all horses can go barefoot, if their feet arent good enough they have to be shod to deal with the work. We put them on un-natural surfaces, like concrete.

A barefoot trimmer IS NOT always qualified to do anything, so make sure you check their background. My farrier charges £19 for a trim and £69 for a full set of shoes. Shoes- every 6 weeks. Barefoot in work (work trims their feet) every 8-15 weeks depending on your horse :)

So there is a big cost difference!!!
 
I remember a time when barefoot was called unshod!!

Seriously though, as a person whose horses are all shod, I find the concept of working the horse unshod with modern feed supplement ideas very interesting and am not narrow minded about it at all, however, I have also seen a horse develop navicular syndrome in all four feet after being trimmed far too excessively (in my opinion) by a barefoot trimmer. The horse improved dramatically once shod under vet supervision.

I think that open mindedness and common sense on both sides of the argument are important and whilst being worked unshod may well work for many horses, I think it is dangerous to assume that it will work well for all horses.
 
It is worth also remembering that the "modern day" barefoot brigade founders, shall we call them, are actually farriers. They still practice as farriers but got involved with research on hooves one way or another and decided that actually, horses can cope just as well without shoes if not better. Just like it says in the textbooks. If you can manage without, do.

If you do want to know a bit more on methods, I suggest the following for background reading on current researchers:

Jamie Jackson (Farrier - founded NHCP)
Pete Ramey (Farrier - NHCP)
K C La Pierre (Farrier - founded EPA)
Strasser (She's a vet who founded Strasser Hoofcare)

The "schools" are:

EPA/EPAUK
ANHCP/UKNHCP

and are recognised worldwide and have much in common. Don't really know why there are two but keeps things interesting for now.

In UK:

Sarah Braithewaite & Nic Barker (UKNHCP)
Richard Vialls, Jayne Hunt (EPAUK)
(many more of course but I think the work of these people are important)

Oh, and check out www.safergrass.org

hope that's helped anyone who wants to do a bit of "light" reading :)
 
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Definitely agree on the background reading suggestions, in fact I have to say that having spent a lot of time recently reading up, the idea of shoes does seem rather odd. I've had shod horses for 20 years but if it can be avoided, never again. Concrete and tarmac may not be natural surfaces, as is often pointed out, but nailing a metal shoe to the hoof and adding huge concussive forces and peripheral loading surely isn't always the best way to deal with it? I do wonder if in time a link will be proven between the high rate of hoof/leg/tendon/bone/arthritis issues we see, and the wearing of shoes.

One thing though - I thought much of the Strasser advice was seen as inappropriate now?
 
The strasser debate is still up for discussion and the controversy was about how someone performed a Strasser style "Trim" on a foundered horse. I don't know the ins and outs of it. It came sound as was predicted but at the time it was distressing to the owner so she pressed charges. It was first recommended by TLC but after that they sort of said, oh better not and have been nervous about barefoot trimming ever since. I don't know if this has changed.. as far as I can see their website hasn't changed in at least 4 years.

As a vet, her work is on pathological issues, it's just "extreme" and scares people. I've read about some of her work and don't agree with some of it and find other bits interesting.
 
I have had my cob x unshod for just over 2 years now. Farrier always say's his hooves are boring, as they are text book, and he's glad not every horse has hooves like his. Well he does need to make some money somewhere.

I really recommend this http://www.naturalhorsesupplies.co.uk/p/product/1102094799-Herbal+Total+900g++%A3599/ I fed it my pony, thought it was doing nothing as he just went on without any problems, so after it had gone didn't get any more. How wrong was I, he's now quite footie on stones, when before he wasn't, fine on the roads and grass. So really think this is brill, for my pony anyway.

Good luck, it's not as hard as it may sound :)
 
Samantha008 said:
However not all horses can go barefoot, if their feet arent good enough they have to be shod to deal with the work. We put them on un-natural surfaces, like concrete.
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If their feet aren't good enough to work on concrete, look first at the diet and living conditions and the regularity of work on tough surfaces, OP, before you assume that "some horses just can't do it". Work on concrete is not a problem for my horses, one of which started out as a horse two farriers told me would never work without shoes at all, never mind on concrete.
 
Monkers said:
however, I have also seen a horse develop navicular syndrome in all four feet after being trimmed far too excessively (in my opinion) by a barefoot trimmer. The horse improved dramatically once shod under vet supervision.
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Given what we now know about navicular syndrome lameness resulting almost invariably from soft tissue damage and not bone damage, I find this extremely unlikely.

I am guessing, and please correct me if I am wrong, that the horse in question was very badly trimmed and lamed in all four feet (if this was a Strasser invasive trim, it was illegal and has all but died out in this country due to 2 successful prosecutions).

The horse was then xrayed and shown to have navicular bone changes and the assumption was made that the lameness was due to those changes. The horse was shod and improved.

It is, however, unlikely that the trim would have the remotest thing to do with the bone changes, becuase of the length of time needed to change the bone. It is also unlikely that the bone changes had anything to do with the lameness. Because if you xray 100 sound horses, something like half of them will have navicular bone changes. The state of the bone in navicular cases bears little relationship to the amount of lamenss, which on MRI or dissection is shown in nearly every case to be a result of soft tissue damage not bone damage.

So my guess is that this horse was so drastically trimmed (Strasser trimmers draw blood and as I said it is illegal) that it was sore for a long, long time and shoeing it removed the remaining soreness. Or that being made so sore caused the horse to mildly strain collateral ligaments or deep digital flexor tendon. Both conditions would have recovered in time with a proper trim without shoeing.

That's my guess, what's the reality???
 
My horse is 5 and has never been shod. he has been in work since march last year. he is trimmed by the farrier every 6 - 8 weeks. The drier the weather and the firmer the ground the harder the frog and heels of his feet get. He feels stones more in the winter when his feet are damp and soft through standing in the field 10 hours a day.

He is about to get his first set of shoes because we have so many sharp stones and flint in our area and I want to see if it helps with his napping. If it doesn't then they're coming off again.

Something for you to think about:

The one thing I am not looking forward to is slipping on the roads. Currently I have no qualms whatsoever about riding him on roads, he is very comfortable and his feet don't wear away. With shoes on he is going to slide about all over the place especially on the hills. It's a great feeling knowing that if he leaps sideways at something in the hedge we are not going to fall over. He's much more likely to trip on soft, rutted or lumpy surfaces.
 
ive just had my two trimmed, they are unshod, and have never been shod, and im fine with that.

Farrier asked if i supplement because their feet are so good and their hooves are strong. He reckoned leaving them 10 weeks, because they literally do not chip or crack. Trims are £20 each.

Both horses breeds are known for having excellent feet so why bother changing anything?
 
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