A question for the BF Taliban.....

[RoobyDoobs]

Apologies in advance for the novel!!!

I bought my boy last July. He is 14 (15 this year), a 16’3 ID x Cob, and weighs in at around 750kgs. That is him in my profile pic. He is broken to ride and drive, but had predominantly been used as a driving horse.

History is as follows: First owner purchased from dealer. Broken to drive, and chap owned him for 2 years before popping his clogs. He had made his wife promise if anything ever happened to him, she would not sell him on. 3 years later (now 11) having stood in a field unused, alone and although taken care of, wasted, (non horsey) wife decides to contact original dealer to try and find a ‘forever home’ for him.

First to see was next owner. Bought him on the spot, and owned for 3 years. Sold on as hip and knee problems, too many horses, and was allowing many people to ‘use’ him but only driving / riding him occasionally herself. Bless him – it was taking her up to 15 minutes to mount and he would stand stock still while she got on / sorted herself out. To get off, she would ‘slither’ down his side or over his bum, often landing on her backside on the floor underneath him somewhere. He was, and still is, a saint.

Then, along came me. Kind of came by him un-intentionally (had decided the day before I wasn’t going to have another as the previous evil ginger mare had killed my confidence), fell in love with him and bought him on the spot. First ride, my nerves fell away and my confidence has returned tenfold.

Anyway, (well done if you’ve got this far – there is a point to the thread, honest!) last owner advised that as, before she had bought him, he had stood for three years in a wet muddy field without the correct attention to his feet, he had suffered severe thrush. She was putting green oil on his feet daily, and his heels, soles and frog were soft and mushy. When my farrier saw him for the first time, and took his old shoes off, firstly his backs were very bruised (I guess from being driven), he told me to stop with the green oil, and just keep his feet very clean. Not always easy in the winter when living out 24/7! His feet hardened up nicely and his growth is good.

However, as the months went by, I noticed he found it difficult to work on any ground not quite level, or stony – particularly on his near fore. If he stands on a stone, or uneven ground when I’m riding, he tends to stumble a little. Anyway, he became slightly lame a few weeks ago while I was out riding him. Got off and walked him back to the yard via roads rather than stony path. Got the farrier out, and he said that his heels / frogs were soft and I should scrub daily with warm water and hibi scrub for a week. Seemed to sort itself out. I have noticed over the last couple of weeks since the ground has been hard, he seems a little footsore. No sign of thrush atm.

He is on a good diet (Pure Fibre balance (the correct amount for his weight), ad-lib hay and the occasional apple / carrot / mint).

I would very much like to consider going barefoot with him, as I suspect it would do his foot-health wonders, but when I asked my Farrier he told me that if he gets sore feet with shoes on, then shoes off will be a nightmare for him. He also hinted that he was ‘too big’ to go barefoot.

So my question to the BF Taliban is, do they agree with this? Would be grateful for any suggestions.

Sorry it’s such a long thread, but I thought the history was important. Cadburys fruit & nut and a glass of good Pino for those that made it to the end

 

[Nocturnal]

Well, I don't know if I qualify for membership of the BF Taliban but a few of things spring to mind. Firstly, nothing's too big to go barefoot, that's daft . Second, when you say his feet are soft, is it thrush, or thin soles (or something else)? Thirdly, I'd say the diet is probably ok - if your horse is not sensitive to sugars/starch, but you're probably lacking in some minerals.

 

[cptrayes]

I would very much like to consider going barefoot with him, as I suspect it would do his foot-health wonders, but when I asked my Farrier he told me that if he gets sore feet with shoes on, then shoes off will be a nightmare for him. He also hinted that he was ‘too big’ to go barefoot.

So my question to the BF Taliban is, do they agree with this? Would be grateful for any suggestions.

Sorry it’s such a long thread, but I thought the history was important. Cadburys fruit & nut and a glass of good Pino for those that made it to the end

No I don't agree, surprise !

My 17 hand 650+ kilo hunter doesn't have any problems with being too big to hunt without shoes.

One of my first two barefoot horses (both also 17 hands plus) was so sore in shoes that he could not walk up a stony track with his shoes on, but after 3 months barefoot he could do the same track fine.

The other had to be shod one front foot at a time because his feet were not strong enough for him to stand on one bare and have the other shod.

Your horse will need a good diet, but there is plenty of info about that elsewhere if you search the forum for barefoot threads. He may take a little while to build strong feet which lose their sensitivity, but it's very unlikely that he won't be able to cope.

Go for it!

 

[ThePony]

Hope I'm a fairly tame barefooter lol!

No such thing as too big, so you can ignore that particular stresser.

Diet will be the first thing to look at - what are you feeding him?

Treating thrush can be really difficult, we are currently battling it with OH mare. We have taken the approach recommended by Pete Ramey http://www.hoofrehab.com/hoof articles by Pete Ramey.htm and are currently treating with 'Pete's Goo'. We have taken the diet, then gently gently approach, so now we are hitting it with the big guns! I got the bits from ebay, amazon also stocks the creams so it is easy enough to get hold of what you need.

If he gets sore feet with shoes on then it makes me think there are serious weaknesses in the foot - sadly shoes won't treat this, but shoes will hide the worst of the symptoms.

If you do decide to take shoes off, then there is no need at all for your horse to suffer discomfort. Sorting the diet well in advance will really help your horse, and if there are any surfaces your horse finds challenging then you can boot - all around if needed. They still allow the hoof to flex (which increases blood flow) which shoes don't do, you have the benefit of removing them on comfy surface and so maximising hoof stimulation. Diet plus stimulation = strong and healthy feet.

Check out Pete Rameys site given above, Nic's blog http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/ the UKNHCP forums http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/forum2.php and the excellent book 'Feet First'. Knowledge is power so get reading lol!

Do you have pics (at 90deg side on at ground level, exactly infront at ground level and of the sole) for us to have a peek at?

 

[cptrayes]

ps pino, yes, but grigio please I don't like noir

 

[RoobyDoobs]

Well, I don't know if I qualify for membership of the BF Taliban but a few of things spring to mind. Firstly, nothing's too big to go barefoot, that's daft . Second, when you say his feet are soft, is it thrush, or thin soles (or something else)? Thirdly, I'd say the diet is probably ok - if your horse is not sensitive to sugars/starch, but you're probably lacking in some minerals.

Hi Nocturnal. Thanks for your post, and the size thing is good news!! I did wonder His feet dont seem to be soft at the mo, just a little tender when he's moving around on the frozen, uneven mud (im assuming his frog / heels, but I guess I could be wrong). There doesnt appear to be any thrush - no smell, clean nicely with a hoofpick & brush.

What type of minerals do you think I might be missing for him?

 

[Nocturnal]

Hi Nocturnal. Thanks for your post, and the size thing is good news!! I did wonder His feet dont seem to be soft at the mo, just a little tender when he's moving around on the frozen, uneven mud (im assuming his frog / heels, but I guess I could be wrong). There doesnt appear to be any thrush - no smell, clean nicely with a hoofpick & brush.

What type of minerals do you think I might be missing for him?

Feed companies seem to universally balance the minerals in their feed against an abstract list of mineral quantities a horse needs to survive. They do not take account of the fact that certain minerals are typically lacking in UK grazing (copper and zince are the two main offenders!), so the minerals in bagged feeds generally are not 'balanced' at all. This can have a detrimental effect on hooves, and prevent horses from becoming 'rock crunching'.

Forage analysis and individual mineral balancing is all the rage now, but if you can't do that then there are a couple of supplements on the market that will do a decent job in most cases. They are pro-hoof from ebay, or meta balance from equimins (you need to phone them to order it). This will need to be fed in a suitable base feed - a lot of people rate Fast Fibre by allen and page. I use speedibeet. Hope that helps

 

[KSR]

I would listen to the previous posts.. Several of us are having issues or working thro or managing foot issues.. There are some hugely knowledgeable hoof people on here and people very knowledgeable about metabolic imbalance ramifications..

I have to say I had a little giggle at the hint that your horse might be too big for barefoot as I have a mental image of a newborn foal popping out with a full set on, I'm sorry :/

Good luck!!!

 

[RoobyDoobs]

ps pino, yes, but grigio please I don't like noir

CP both yourself and The Pony can have a bottle each for that! Thanks so much for your replies....I'm grinning...

I kind of suspected CP that having shoes on would mask a problem, which makes me want to do something for him all the more... Its a worry! I will have a really good read of your posts and the links you have supplied for me later (off out in a mo to go do my oss) and will start to consider how we will make the transition. This year we have lots of plans... trekking hols, riding through forests and hopefully a spot of autumn hunting... Im very excited for our future

I dont have any pics, but will get some over the weekend and post them. He has feet like dinner plates so be prepared!

 

[RoobyDoobs]

Feed companies seem to universally balance the minerals in their feed against an abstract list of mineral quantities a horse needs to survive. They do not take account of the fact that certain minerals are typically lacking in UK grazing (copper and zince are the two main offenders!), so the minerals in bagged feeds generally are not 'balanced' at all. This can have a detrimental effect on hooves, and prevent horses from becoming 'rock crunching'.

Forage analysis and individual mineral balancing is all the rage now, but if you can't do that then there are a couple of supplements on the market that will do a decent job in most cases. They are pro-hoof from ebay, or meta balance from equimins (you need to phone them to order it). This will need to be fed in a suitable base feed - a lot of people rate Fast Fibre by allen and page. I use speedibeet. Hope that helps

Thanks Nocturnal, I guess my first stop is to find out exactly what is in the PFB and ascertain what he needs over and above that. I was very lucky to win a competition last year - a years feed from The Pure Feed Company - and they do various types of feed so I can swap and change if I wish. The dietician there is also very good and I'm sure will be very happy to answer any questions / feedback I have. I've also started putting Silver Feet (I think that's what its called) on every day as I heard that kills any bacteria within 20 minutes of contact. I'm hoping that will help any thrush outbreak that may appear. On top of that I moved him a couple of weeks ago to a new yard, where he is living in a much less wet, muddy paddock. The ground is better and drains much faster, which I'm sure will be better for him.

 

[RoobyDoobs]

I would listen to the previous posts.. Several of us are having issues or working thro or managing foot issues.. There are some hugely knowledgeable hoof people on here and people very knowledgeable about metabolic imbalance ramifications..

I have to say I had a little giggle at the hint that your horse might be too big for barefoot as I have a mental image of a newborn foal popping out with a full set on, I'm sorry :/

Good luck!!!

Thanks KSR - I most certainly will. Yes, I did think it strange myself that a farrier would tell me that. He shod for me as a one-off, and I wont be using him again.... He's also left my boy looking pigeon toed.. which he really wasnt before!

 

[RoobyDoobs]

'Feet First'. Knowledge is power so get reading lol!

Just ordered it from Amazon!!!

thanks

 

[Oberon]

Your horse sounds absolutely lovely!

My Tank is Ardennes x ID and he's a lifetime barefooter.

Although the 'horse is too big to be barefoot' thing sounds silly....there is current theory that when horses are foals and are kept sedentary on soft pasture - their digital cushion and lateral cartilages don't get the pounding stimulation they need to develop and turn from fat to fibro-cartilage. So the young horse continues to grow and get heavier - but the back of the hoof is still weak and flabby and cannot support the horse properly. The shoes go on at 4/5 and this takes the caudal foot even more out of action...and so the horse gets to an adult or dies of old age with the caudal hoof development of a foal....

So there is a point to it - but I doubt that is what your farrier is referring to as it's 'crazy BF theory'

I only mention it out of interest. It's not a reason to avoid BF, as every BF step a horse takes will pound that fat into strong material over time. So it's all fine

It would be helpful to get a pic of hooves to have a look at where you problems may be.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=510733&highlight=hoof+pics

I know you are feeding what you (and the feed company) considers to be a good diet - but nutrition will show in the hooves and if they aren't right - then the diet isn't right, no matter what it says on the feed bag.

I really love this article from one of the original barefoot nut jobs

http://www.quia.com/files/quia/users/medicinehawk/1107-Foundations/paradigm.pdf

Please read that and take some pics and we'll talk some more.

I'm from Blackpool - so (unlike CPTrayes) I will drink anything you're buying

 

[Oberon]

This is The Tank BTW (no longer croup high - he was 4 at the time)

 

[Nocturnal]

Oberon, he's smashing!

Interesting thoughts about hoof development. Of course they'd apply to all horses, not just large ones, but I suppose the bigger the horse the stronger the foot needs to be to support it.

 

[tallyho!]

Agree with nutrition, long gone are the days of buying premixed stuff no matter how good the Pure Feed Company claim to be. My foal is on measured scoops of certain mins never mind my big chap.

I can't stress how important forage analysis is. It'll save you £'s in the long run. Get your hay or grass tested and supplement accordingly... Forage plus are the best IMO... I even got the farmer converted!

Barefoot is 90% diet, 5% work, 5% trim or thereabouts

Go on all the barefoot sites and forums, believe it or not this isn't the only forum talking about bf...

One last thing.... Do we HAVE to be called BF Taliban????

 

[Oberon]

Oberon, he's smashing!

Interesting thoughts about hoof development. Of course they'd apply to all horses, not just large ones, but I suppose the bigger the horse the stronger the foot needs to be to support it.

It's interesting and could explain why horses 'need shoes' when they first start working and land toe first straight away.
The main conclusion is to pay attention to foal's hooves and get them moving!
The Tank came to me as a feral two year old - he'd never been touched, let alone had his hooves cared for......

The caudal hoof and it's internal structures had been forgotten about. Everyone was focused on P3...but we are realising now (mostly thanks to Dr Bowker's research) that the back of the hoof and it's development is essential.

For anyone interested...the green bits indicate the lateral cartilages (to the back of the hoof as P3 is to the front) and the red is the digital cushions (should be firm micro-cartilage, not fatty lumps).

 

[Oberon]

One last thing.... Do we HAVE to be called BF Taliban????

Blame Brucea. He started it.

And yes we do - don't question.

Bad things will happen to you

(In seriousness - it's better than some of the names we've been called before. I'd rather pick the name we get called and have fun with it)

 

[amandap]

Second all the advice given so far! lol I do think work aka movement/exercize is a very large part of developing and keeping a hoof healthy. If his caudal (back half) hoof is weak, as explained by Oberon, time and comfortable exercize is vital to developing it.
Go for it and arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can and listen to your horse. Good luck. Read Pete Ramey's articles on his web site as well.

Oberon, I've fallen in love with the Tank all over again! Fab photo of him.

 

[cptrayes]

A good way to set up your horses feet before you take the shoes off Is to use a product called vettec hoof pack. It fills the middle of the shoe and mimics barefoot it will hold his pedal bone in place so the hoof wall grows down and leaves the bone higher in the hoof capsule.

I don't doubt for one minute that sole stimulation will help strengthen the sole, but the only way you can get the pedal bone permanently higher in the hoof capsule is to strengthen the glue that holds it there, the laminae. That's where the low sugar/high fibre diet comes it, it's what it does, among other things.

Bowker recommends not picking out the feet in order to stimulate the sole, but in a wet climate this can give you frog problems.

How does vettec not fall out dtbb? How much does it cost, and is it available in Britain?

 

[cptrayes]

I've google it and realised that it's teh stuff my friend used on her horse with sheared heels. It cost her over £20 per foot and it fell out. I guess her farrier got the application wrong.

Basically, it should stay in becuase it's a glue. My concern is that, having seen it on her horse, it's too spongy to stimulate the sole, it protects it from shocks instead, like a gel pad under a saddle.

I'm really unconvinced it would work or be worth the money for preparing a barefoot horse. Did you use it dtbb???

 

[wellsat]

No advice other than what has been said already from far more knowledgeable people than me but wanted to say go for it! I wish I'd trusted my instincts rather than listening to my old farrier and believing G had to have shoes on.

 

[paddy555]

This is The Tank BTW (no longer croup high - he was 4 at the time)

lovely horse Oberon. What is on his nose? it looks like a hackamore nosepiece but I can't work the rest out?

 

[Oberon]

lovely horse Oberon. What is on his nose? it looks like a hackamore nosepiece but I can't work the rest out?

Dr Cook's

 

[cornishkez]

Just to add...if his thrush was really bad and did a lot of damage to frog and central sulcous then it could take a good 6 months for the healthy frog to come back again. Im having the same prob with my boy that Ive had 3 months.

 

[Oberon]

I've google it and realised that it's teh stuff my friend used on her horse with sheared heels. It cost her over £20 per foot and it fell out. I guess her farrier got the application wrong.

Basically, it should stay in becuase it's a glue. My concern is that, having seen it on her horse, it's too spongy to stimulate the sole, it protects it from shocks instead, like a gel pad under a saddle.

I'm really unconvinced it would work or be worth the money for preparing a barefoot horse. Did you use it dtbb???

I understand Pete Ramey is experimenting with these products, and using them with Equi casts for compromised horses that need protection 24/7.

We have plenty of mud to pack in and support the sole, but it's an exciting time with new developments coming out to help during the transitional phase.

 

[cptrayes]

I understand Pete Ramey is experimenting with these products, and using them with Equi casts for compromised horses that need protection 24/7.

We have plenty of mud to pack in and support the sole, but it's an exciting time with new developments coming out to help during the transitional phase.

It will be terrific if we can find a way to pack the shod foot for one shoeing, use the time to adjust the diet if necessary, and then have the horse comfortable from day one. I'd never have thought of it, it's good we have people trying these things. I wonder how much angst on my part and how many abscesses on his that it might have saved the first horse I did, who had dropped soles and feet too big for any boots that were made at the time.

 

[RoobyDoobs]

Your horse sounds absolutely lovely!

My Tank is Ardennes x ID and he's a lifetime barefooter.

Although the 'horse is too big to be barefoot' thing sounds silly....there is current theory that when horses are foals and are kept sedentary on soft pasture - their digital cushion and lateral cartilages don't get the pounding stimulation they need to develop and turn from fat to fibro-cartilage. So the young horse continues to grow and get heavier - but the back of the hoof is still weak and flabby and cannot support the horse properly. The shoes go on at 4/5 and this takes the caudal foot even more out of action...and so the horse gets to an adult or dies of old age with the caudal hoof development of a foal....

So there is a point to it - but I doubt that is what your farrier is referring to as it's 'crazy BF theory'

I only mention it out of interest. It's not a reason to avoid BF, as every BF step a horse takes will pound that fat into strong material over time. So it's all fine

It would be helpful to get a pic of hooves to have a look at where you problems may be.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=510733&highlight=hoof+pics

I know you are feeding what you (and the feed company) considers to be a good diet - but nutrition will show in the hooves and if they aren't right - then the diet isn't right, no matter what it says on the feed bag.

I really love this article from one of the original barefoot nut jobs

http://www.quia.com/files/quia/users/medicinehawk/1107-Foundations/paradigm.pdf

Please read that and take some pics and we'll talk some more.

I'm from Blackpool - so (unlike CPTrayes) I will drink anything you're buying

Thanks Oberon... yes he's lovely, but i'm biased Head over heels with him, and I fall for him a little bit more every day!!! Your tank looks lovely also!

Thanks to everybody for your posts on the subject of my boys feet!!! I have uploaded some pics just now, into an album... Not very good quality I'm afraid! I arrived at the yard and all pipes were frozen, so no hose to clean his legs down, and he was up to his knees in mud! So begged water from the YO house and washed his lower legs and feet as best I could. May not be any good as the lighting was fairly poor, and I can tell you its not easy taking those pics with one hand while holding a foot up with the other!!! There was nobody else at the yard to help so it was a bit of a struggle to get the frogs / soles...He was very well behaved tho and just stood looking at me over his shoulder wondering what on earth I was doing lol.... have a look and tell me what you think... if they're really no good, i'll have another go

 

[Oberon]

Side pics at ground level are always a help too.

They don't look too bad. The are ripples on the hoof wall so you need to be cautious with the diet, but the mechanical stresses of being shod can also cause the ripples.

One of the front shoes looks off balance to me.

It's difficult to tell with shoes on - but the soles are likely to be thin. They're pared by the farrier during shoeing, so that will have to stop if you go BF.

Ground stimulation (which you are also missing out on with shoes on) will also thicken soles. But only if he is comfortable.

If he is sensitive to sugar in any way, the spring grass is going to be a PITA, as is common.

I would say you need someone who is prepared to support you and provide a sympathetic trim. From what you have said - your current hoof care provider may not be that person? And he may need boots in the beginning to get him through the transitional phase comfortably.

 

[RoobyDoobs]

Thanks Oberon. You know I was looking at those ripples (all his hooves are the same), and when you look the bottom inch or so is smooth. I was wondering if that was either when I bought him, and obviously he was moved to different land, or when I changed his diet. He's been on the PF diet now since probably mid December. He was on Happy Hoof before. I've writtten to PF today to ask what level of copper and zinc are in the food he's on, and to ask whether there is a feed more appropriate in their range to suit our plans. I know there are no sugars in the feed at present. I dont really know, having only had him since July, how he is going to react to the spring grass. What should I be looking out for?

I know what you mean about his front shoe looking off balance - the farrier I last used was an emergency stand in, and I will not be using him again. My farrier is back in town, and he is due to shoe next saturday. I think I'm going to broach (?) the subject with him and see what kind of reaction I get. If I can do it with his support, that would be cool!