A question for YO's. How far do you step in to help a livery ?

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BBH

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Bit of help needed please and a what would you do.

I am getting a bit frustrated with a girl who has a pony on livery with me. Basically she bought the pony when she was with her husband and they would come twice a day to see to him. Fast forward 10 months and she is a single parent. When I met her 2yrs ago she was learning to drive fast forward 2 yrs and she is still learning to drive so has to rely on people being available to sit with her.

The pony was a DIY livery with a stable and grazing and all was fine but gradually she has seen less and less of him and I have filled in the gaps because I don't want the pony suffering or missing out in any way. He is sharing a field with mine and I worm him, feed him etc etc you get the picture. The farrier was booked and she cancelled him. She has now said she wants the pony on grass livery only as she doesn't have much money, the farrier is coming again tomorrow and there has been no mention of bringing her pony up from the field, no money left to pay for the farrier but his feet need badly doing. I can see this poor pony being abandoned to the field as its a way of not needing to see him at all. He is a lovely pony who would flourish in the right hands but does it matter if he is ' wasted'. He's not uncared for because I step in but I don't want to do this indefinitely as I've got my own to do.

I don't want to give the impression that she is uncaring and her rent is up to date but I just think she is overwhelmed with her numerous jobs and sorting the kids. She won't sell the pony and I don't really want her taking him away because god knows what would happen to him then.

How far do you YO's go to support someone. I know me stepping in is not helping but if I didn't there's no-one else to do him.
 
Increase her livery to allow for the cost of the farrier, worming to be included etc. I used to have a basic all year round price which would do this so horse wouldn't go without and I wasn't out of pocket.
I do think she needs a strict talking to though as she shouldn't leave you holding the baby with full responsibility at only grass livery prices; she should either sell, loan out or cough up the extra needed.
 
One of our liveries has an incredibly busy life style, kids, jobs etc. Not really enough time for the horse. They pay us a 'basic grass livery' rate. And we list and charge for all the 'extras' we do (rug changes, feeding, worming, bring in for farrier etc). Its very easy to help out a bit, but then end up doing the lot!! We have a list of jobs and costs, and at the end of every week she pays us what she owes for the help. That way if she can get up here she does it, but if not we'll help out but not at our own expense!
 
I'm not a YO, but how amenable would she be to a discussion about the pony's needs and maybe a gentle suggestion that she moves onto more of a full-livery service (even if the pony continues to live out) until she's back on her feet?
I would approach it in more of a 'I can see that life has landed you a lot on your plate at the moment, perhaps I can help out a little bit...' rather than 'you don't care for your pony'.
That way, as suggested by Maesfen, you can ensure his basic needs are met and she doesn't have the worry of when and how she can get to see him.
We had a livery on DIY who used to neglect her horse quite badly and YO gave her the ultimatum of putting him on part-livery or leaving the yard. She chose part-livery and kept him there for many more years very happily.
While it is a shame that a talented pony is out of work for a while, it is not the end of the world as long as he is still healthy and being cared for.
 
as others have said about upping her livery but also could you sit down with her and suggest she gets a sharer for the pony to help with the costs and workload until she is in a better position.
 
Thanks everyone but as she has reduced his livery due to no money I can't see her being able to pay for services over and above the grass livery arrangement and if she does he will then not get wormed, regular feet attention, feed etc etc.

IMO she either has to accept she doesn't have the time or money for a horse and sell him or get herself to the point where she can take over his care with all that entails. I don't want to be doing her pony so I want her to take responsibility for him so I can do my own. I also work full time so the time I have spare I want to spend with my own.

It makes me sound uncharitable I know but I really want her to look after her own pony. Of course I'm happy to step in to help in an emergency but I feel really sorry for the pony because he's at the bottom of his owners priority list. Many single parents have horses and manage.
 
BBH said:
Thanks everyone but as she has reduced his livery due to no money I can't see her being able to pay for services over and above the grass livery arrangement and if she does he will then not get wormed, regular feet attention, feed etc etc.

IMO she either has to accept she doesn't have the time or money for a horse and sell him or get herself to the point where she can take over his care with all that entails. I don't want to be doing her pony so I want her to take responsibility for him so I can do my own. I also work full time so the time I have spare I want to spend with my own.

It makes me sound uncharitable I know but I really want her to look after her own pony. Of course I'm happy to step in to help in an emergency but I feel really sorry for the pony because he's at the bottom of his owners priority list. Many single parents have horses and manage.
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In your last paragraph you seem to be turning it around on yourself, you are doing and have done alot for her for nothing !! Nothing to suggest really, just don't beat yourself up about it you are doing your best
 
Yes I have done a lot for nothing but I don't want it carrying on that way other than in an emergency.

I think we'll have to have a serious chat next time I see her.
 
do you have livery contracts at your yard. If so I would issue her with a new one to be signed top reflect the change in livery agreement and state in that contract what the worming arangements are and a list of prices for additional services which will be charged over and above the standard rate, and then cross the bridge when it comes if she refuses to pay. Also can you not get the farrier to leave an invoice for her to pay, thats what they do at our yard, then the farrier will have to take it up with her if she dosne't pay the bill. At our yard All Liveries have to comply with the yard worming programme and their is a list of what additional services will cost, if the worming programme is not followed their horses would not be allowed turned out. We only do full livery for many reason including situations like this.
 
think from a YO’s side of things, only thing you should concern yourself with is the welfare of the pony (fed, watered, checked on, feet done, wormed etc) and that you are paid the right amount and on time and also for the extra services you provide which you should have discussed and ideally have in writing, even if it’s just a friend renting some field space.

As for what you think the pony would be better off doing and the fact that you think the pony is wasted or not being used to it’s full potential etc, that’s taking it too far, you are paid for a service not for your opinions on what the pony should be doing.

Don’t take that the wrong way :), I’m just saying once you start getting involved emotionally then you create more problems or worries for yorself.

So you need to have a word with her and tell her straight, if she's not doing enough for the pony, charge her for full livery (full care) or insist she has to come down and do what needs to be done, ponies can't just be forgotten about when your busy and your not a charity.

Good luck.
 
Time for serious chat with said lady methinks.
Explain that the pony's needs are not being met - and that she would at least have to see to his feet on occasions. (quite a number go without worming etc when financially strapped and either extend the intervals for shoeing or remove the shoes - not always of benefit to the horse, but suits the owners financial needs.)

1.Explain that she has a month to start to address his needs physically - eg, coming down to see to him.
2.Suggest maybe she gets a loaner/sharer?

and finally, if she has not addressed his needs in your suggested timescale (I'd grit my teeth and suggest 6 - 8 week max), then

3. Suggest to her is that the next month or so is a better time of the year to sell - for whatever 'reasonable' price.
If not selling, then she HAS to remove her animal elsewhere - so effectively you give her 2 months notice from now to shape up or ship out.

Much as you might like owner & animal, you cannot assume the needs & wants of said animal except on humane grounds (sorry :o )
If she cannot/will not take responsibility in an agreed timescale (as from when you talk to her), then you need to let her go.

Good luck, I hate these situations, but the longer you keep doing things for her, the harder it is for her - and for you too! :(
 
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If she is struggling so badly, why does she not get a loaner?
That would help her out with the livery costs, and you would have a bit of an easier time of it.
 
She does seem to have rather a lot on her plate. I think the pony would be better off with an owner who could give him the time and care he deserves. Could you gently suggest loaning him out or selling him? As she has already decreased the amount she is paying I can't see her being able to pay for the 'extras'. But you CANNOT leave a pony without basic care, and the very basic must include regular visits from the farrier...She needs to face up to the situation.
 
I'd sit her down for a chat and suggest either, selling, loaning or getting a sharer for the pony so that the pony is getting excercised and she is getting help financially to help with farrier, worming and other costs.
 
Sharing is not an option as the pony is unbacked.

She has just text to say she can't afford to have his feet done tomorrow :mad:
 
BBH said:
Thanks everyone but as she has reduced his livery due to no money I can't see her being able to pay for services over and above the grass livery arrangement and if she does he will then not get wormed, regular feet attention, feed etc etc.

IMO she either has to accept she doesn't have the time or money for a horse and sell him or get herself to the point where she can take over his care with all that entails. I don't want to be doing her pony so I want her to take responsibility for him so I can do my own. I also work full time so the time I have spare I want to spend with my own.

It makes me sound uncharitable I know but I really want her to look after her own pony. Of course I'm happy to step in to help in an emergency but I feel really sorry for the pony because he's at the bottom of his owners priority list. Many single parents have horses and manage.
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I have to agree with you that if she can't move the pony up her priority list she should think about selling him or at the very least getting someone to loan or share him until her life settles down a bit.
Yes, many single parents do cope magnificently with children and horses, but probably have support mechanisms in place that are not available to this particular lady, or they structure their lives around their horses and children which probably doesn't leave much room for anything else!

People need to stop assuming that just because they've loaded their plates up with too much to cope with, 'someone else' is just going to step into the breach. It doesn't work that way. If you can't cope with a child and a horse, get rid of one (I know which one I would, and it wouldn't be the horse LOL - probably explains why I don't have children :D)
 
BBH said:
Sharing is not an option as the pony is unbacked.

She has just text to say she can't afford to have his feet done tomorrow :mad:
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Ok, then text her back and ask her to come to the yard on x date and Y time and you can work out a plan for what is best for the horse.
 
From a YO's point of view:
I would ask her to put the pony on Part/Full livery, when she refuses, hand her notice. She might not be able to afford it, but can you? Are you there to subsidise her hobby or run a business?
It might sound heartless, I'm not, but I'm also not in a position to fund other people's horses and if she doesn't foot the bill, you will have to or, sooner or later you will have RSPCA on your back.
 
I would get her sat down with a coffee in privacy, and go through the new contract you have drawn up (slash, will shortly draw up) for grass livery and go through the prices and include the minimum standards for attendance and horse care on your yard (i.e. horses on grass livery checkes once/twice daily, rugs taken off and horses groomed X times a week, supplimentary feeding when required, fields poo picked X times a week, horses wormed and feet trimmed regularly and have annual vaccinations as well as other vet treatment yada yada). Show how much you will be charging for when you have to do the horse, and if she makes "yes but I'm going to have to move in that case" noises gently let her know that this is a MIMIMUM standard of horse care which all horses need to receive, regardless of where they are kept, and that it is your duty towards the horse to alert any new YO to the potential situation, and that even if you don't, sooner or later the authorities and welfare organisations will be sniffing around, and you're sure nobody wants that when you can see that she cares about the horse but is strugging at the moment.

I think if you approach it from a sympathetic point of view and she can see you are trying to help her whilst at the same time not being left out of pocket and time yourself, she will hopefully either pay up or come to her own conclusion that she needs to sell him.
 
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I've asked to see her tom with a view to sorting this out.

I am gonna do as suggested and ask what / when she needs help. I will then work out the cost of livery to cover what extra's she has asked for and work out the feet, wormers etc and get to a monthly figure.
I will state that I am only going to do what has been asked for in the livery and everything else is down to her.

If she cannot afford this she will either have to go or make sure she does him herself but with the understanding I will not tolerate an uncared for pony on the yard.
 
That's good, hope it goes well and has a satisfactory ending. Just one more point, I think maybe she has lower standards of care than you do, so its perhaps also worth saying to her to avoid any doubt or grey areas what attention the pony needs as a mimimum.

Hope it goes well. :)
 
Naturally said:
That's good, hope it goes well and has a satisfactory ending. Just one more point, I think maybe she has lower standards of care than you do, so its perhaps also worth saying to her to avoid any doubt or grey areas what attention the pony needs as a mimimum.

Hope it goes well. :)
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Hadn't thought of that tbh. Do you think i'm being unreasonable expecting him to be wormed and regular trim ( 6weekly feet to fit in with rest of yard ). Cos i've been doing him i've just joined him in with the care mine get.

Maybe i'm being over zealous ?
 
BBH said:
It makes me sound uncharitable I know but I really want her to look after her own pony. Of course I'm happy to step in to help in an emergency but I feel really sorry for the pony because he's at the bottom of his owners priority list. Many single parents have horses and manage.
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I don't thinly you sound unchcharitable - quit the opposite actually. But at the end of the day you are running a business not a charity. I would charge her the basic livery and bill her for the extras. If she can't pay she 'll need to make alternative arrangements....
 
i don't think so- some horses can go a bit longer but if she doesn't get in a routine with the farrier then it will go past the maximum 8 weeks and what's the point of you worming the yard if she doesn't?

I'd suggest that she gets a sharer before you ask her to leave the yard- I think you'v been more than helpful but if she has to move, then who knows what will happen to ponio? (Although hard because it isn't your responsibility)
Tough situation I do think the bit about the contract is good but you still have the problem of enforcing it and if she can't pay, she can't pay :-( Poor pony and poor you!! :(
 
I would bite the bullet and expalin that she needs to find alternative livery or sell the pony. A new owner may be the best solution for the pony and she would be relieved of obligations that are too onerous for her. As a YO you only have so much time and energy and some people are a drain on both.
 
BBH said:
Hadn't thought of that tbh. Do you think i'm being unreasonable expecting him to be wormed and regular trim ( 6weekly feet to fit in with rest of yard ). Cos i've been doing him i've just joined him in with the care mine get.

Maybe i'm being over zealous ?
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I don't think you are being over zealous at all , All horses and ponies should be regularly wormed especially in a shared yard - whats the point of everybody else worming to a specific time table if this pony isn't included? Taylor a livery contract to suit her and pony and warn her if she doesn't stick to it you'll give her notice to move. I do feel for this lady as money is pretty tight for everyone but basic standards of care are a must. After all other potential customers will want to see you as a fair and animal welfare minded YO , offering good standards of care at every level.. good luck
 
BBH said:
Hadn't thought of that tbh. Do you think i'm being unreasonable expecting him to be wormed and regular trim ( 6weekly feet to fit in with rest of yard ). Cos i've been doing him i've just joined him in with the care mine get.

Maybe i'm being over zealous ?
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Why don't you ask the farrier tomorrow (today? I can't remember!) if in his opinion the pony will be ok if not worked, left out on grass and trimmed every 12 weeks? I have known ponies on grass go longer than that even, not in an ideal world (long boring story and not mine) but they didn't seem any the worse for it. Had their feet cracked or gone curled up different story, but ponies in good health with no problems might just get a bit more to chop off next time. Whatever the farrier says, I think its good to get his/her opinion so that at least you have an independent expert's opinion to decide on what really is a welfare issue.

I don't think regular worming (or at least a worming/egg count programme) is being unreasonable at all. I think that counts as minimum standards of care, and so does teeth once a year too.

Hate to bring this up too, but laminitis - is the pony the type to be susceptible?
 
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