A short story about a lame horse

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TraLaLa

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New here, and hoping some members may be able to offer a few insights into this. I bought a horse a few months ago from an established, reputable dealer. Horse went really nicely during both tryouts - fluid, loose movement.

Rode for the first time a day after I got him home and he was really tight and stuffy - didn't want to go forward. I went down the saddle route (which took up loads of time and money) but a few weeks ago he was lame behind (possibly hock/s).
My question is - would 'an established, reputable dealer' risk buting a horse up for a vetting? Do dealers know the optimum amount to use and the required 'timing' for it not to show up in blood tests?
Any thoughts most welcome.
 
TraLaLa said:
New here, and hoping some members may be able to offer a few insights into this. I bought a horse a few months ago from an established, reputable dealer. Horse went really nicely during both tryouts - fluid, loose movement.

Rode for the first time a day after I got him home and he was really tight and stuffy - didn't want to go forward. I went down the saddle route (which took up loads of time and money) but a few weeks ago he was lame behind (possibly hock/s).
My question is - would 'an established, reputable dealer' risk buting a horse up for a vetting? Do dealers know the optimum amount to use and the required 'timing' for it not to show up in blood tests?
Any thoughts most welcome.
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What has the vet said?
 
The quick answer would be - I assume you had it vetted and they took a blood sample.

If they didn't, then any answer would be irrelevant, because without a blood sample you don't have any way to prove it was doped and without evidence there isn't anything you can do.

I am sorry to hear you have had problems.
 
Yes, full vetting. He passed for RC activities. The seller pushed me towards using htis particular vet as said the one I wanted to use didn't ususally travel that far (since found out that they do).
 
I'm surprised to say the least that the sellers own vet was used - dont think that is entirely ethical, but however. Assuming that the vet you used is a registered and qualified vet - I would be asking for those bloods to be tested now, even if it is only to reassure you that this is a new condition and not something that was masked at purchase time.
 
I would ask them to pass the blood sample to your own vet to be tested. If you think they are suspect, you may as well try to cover all the bases. Is it likely they would be that foolish to medicate prior to sale ? - possibly. But the horse could have come in to them to sell - from somewhere else, and those people doped it. I would probably pay for the tests - I know it is a lot of money.
 
I agree it is a large amount of money - but Im assuming you paid considerably more than that for the horse? So it isnt just a question of forking out the £300 is it? It is also the possibility that you may have bought a horse that was already unsound so meaning you have lost his purchase price less the low value as a companion.

If the bloods come back positive for bute or something similar at least you have a very strong case for full refund, without that you have no comeback have you?

Would agree very strongly that you ask for the bloods to be tested by your own vet - not theirs!:eek:
 
Thanks for the replies so far. In the end it's a risk/benefit analysis, which is why I'd like to come back to one of the original questions - would a reputable dealer take a risk like that? Would they risk their reputation for a few grand? (We're talking less than £6k here). I'd be interested to hear from anyone who had gone down the blood test route and got a positive dope result.
 
It is your decision but it is not just purchase price - it is all the vets bills you may accumulate depending on what is wrong with this horse which even with insurance could set you back big time. Also speaking of insurance there is usually a time lapse on it where you have a week or 2 weeks from the initial date of starting where you are not covered for anything. I would definitely get the bloods checked.

Would a reputable dealer do this? Depends on how reputable:cool: Nothing surprises me nowadays and using the sellers vet should always ring alarm bells.
 
I can't talk from previous experience and nor do I have proof but from someone I know who has had a similar experience, I would say that it is highly probable that some dealers bute up.
 
To clarify - 2 different vets were suggested as it was felt my vet was too far away. I'm not even sure either of them was their own vet. (More fool me for not asking enough questions). What I have heard though is that dealers do know which vets are more likely to pass their horses than others.
 
I'd like to reiterate my 2nd point too:
Do dealers know the optimum amount of Bute/anti-inflamms/cortizone to use and the required 'timing' for it not to show up in blood tests?
 
Tralala in the end you can speculate and made educated guesses but the only way you may know for sure is to get those bloods done. Not much point in having a vetting and taking bloods if you don't use them when you need to - you have spent this much what is another 300 if it gives you your answers. I have come to the conclusion over the years that I don't take anything on trust and that applies to dealers, private sellers and vets I do not know personally.
 
I would say that some dealers would bute or otherwise dope a horse to make a sale. I would question whether those that would are reputable - but I guess it takes an age to get a good reputation and a moment to ruin it.

do you know the cause of the lameness? Surely if it's arthritis or DJD (depending on age of horse) or possibly even spavin then the vetting should have picked that up?
 
grumpyoldmare said:
I agree it is a large amount of money - but Im assuming you paid considerably more than that for the horse? So it isnt just a question of forking out the £300 is it? It is also the possibility that you may have bought a horse that was already unsound so meaning you have lost his purchase price less the low value as a companion.

If the bloods come back positive for bute or something similar at least you have a very strong case for full refund, without that you have no comeback have you?

Would agree very strongly that you ask for the bloods to be tested by your own vet - not theirs!:eek:
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Would it be beyond imagining that the blood would be from another horse?
Have you complained to dealer, and told him you are awaiting blood test results?
 
TraLaLa said:
I'd like to reiterate my 2nd point too:
Do dealers know the optimum amount of Bute/anti-inflamms/cortizone to use and the required 'timing' for it not to show up in blood tests?
Click to expand...

Of course they do - anyone can look it up on the net:( If they are that kind of dealer they will be very good at it. However, how long between trying the horse and the vetting was there? Hopefully he was vetted very soon after you tried him so if there were significant amounts of drugs in his system they will have still been there on vetting. It is not an exact science however.

Sometimes they have simply been rested a lot prior to trying them and are sold as in full work when in fact they have not been worked much at all. When the horse is brought into full work the problems become apparent. I have known several horses bought from a particular dealer who all had this problem.
 
To the best of my knowledge bute is detectable for up to 12 days after last being administered so if horse was sound on second viewing and blood taken then at vetting bute should show up.

Is it only me but does £300 not sound a bit steep for testing the blood?? Could this price have been given to put you off testing - presuming of course its the vet that did the vetting that has quoted this (which was also a vet whose details were given by the dealer)

Also, is blood not stored, not with the vet that took it, but somewhere else for the 6 months? So technically could you not get your vet to arrange testing - you should have been given a receipt etc to identify your blood - just a thought don't know if its possible?
 
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Yes, it is stored at VDS (Veterinary Defence Society) and I have the sample number. As mentioned, I'm just trying to find out, perhaps from other peoples' experiences, if such a test is worth doing when there might be all sorts of clever ruses that people involved in horse trading get up to.
 
I had one done years ago and it was £30 - but I regularly have full profile done on my veteran cost of last one £75. Kelly Marks posted on HG regarding getting full profile done for a vetting which included steriods and her vet had quoted £200.

Am going to send you a PM!
 
I think I would get the test done,if only to rule out some drugs that may have been used,there are however many other ways that could be used to enable a horse to go through vetting.
Were you there,you said you had a second try on the day of vetting,just the effect of exercise earlier in the day could loosen the horse up.
The vet usually asks to see a horse that has spent some time in its box,preferably overnight,this will show up stiffness more readily.
The horse could have been on "legal" bute and any amount of supplements.
I have known of several that have passed vetting only to go wrong very soon after,including one I sold in good faith,the buyers did get the blood tested and of course nothing showed up,it was on no medication whatsoever and they were just very unlucky it chose to go lame 6 weeks after purchase.
You really need to get a diagnosis so that you know what the problem is but it will be almost impossible to prove the dealer was aware unless drugs were in its system.
 
I have to say that, unfortunately, I think you're going to need to chalk this one up to experience......If the dealer 'pushed' you (in your own words) to use a vet of their choosing then it's definitely not far from probable that said vet is ever so slightly dodgy and thus, any bloods may well not be right anyway. £300 sounds VERY steep to have blodwork done, I've just had one done and it cost me £75 including having the blood taken so that also sounds very iffy to me.

If it were me, I'd be getting the bloods done, by a different, REPUTABLE vet, of YOUR choosing, I'd also be getting a diagnosis of the problem and, if it is something degenerative, an idea of how long it's been in situ.....but like others have said, without solid proof that the dealer knew they there was an issue there's very little you can do.

Having said all of the above....have you spoken to the dealer? If the dealer is as reputable as you say, they may not want to risk their reputation and thus, they may be willing to work with you and possibly exchange the horse/refund some of it's purchase price or something.
 
As mentioned - if I go down this route, I will get the bloods matched first (which, if they don't match, will open up another can of worms !)
 
definitely more than possible he knew just what he was doing!!

It is possible that horse was lame so dealer buted up hoping that either purchaser wouldn't vet or only have 2 stage. purchaser then has to be willing to pay out another £300 to test bloods. Too me that is a risk well worth taking if you want to sell a horse

Then as you say it wore off leaving you with a lame horse.

I'm pretty sure similar happened to me once. Sound horse, told owner wanted 5 stage vetting he said fine but will have to be in 14 days time cos I am going away. (alarm bells should have rung then but didn't it was august) In hindsight why advertise a horse for sale just as your going away?

so vetting arranged and I could see myself said horse was now unsound :mad:

It wasn't much and very experienced vet said she was certain it was a long term problem because of muscle compensation (which I missed)

So he had buted up then when I want 5 stage needed 2 weeks to get the bute out of her system, I guess he just hoped she stayed sound
 
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