A Thank-You To Some Members! Oberon, Cptrayes....

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Although there are times I wish I never use this forum, there are times like yesterday I am so glad that I do.

I posted about my mares hooves, as I got the farrier to take her shoes off yesterday and had a niggling feeling something wasn't right but with the farrier and vet not mentioning anything other than a previous abscess I thought I'd post on here to see others opinions.

So THANK-YOU to those who posted and sent me a private message. Although it wasn't good news and I've been in a similar situation this time last year that ended in the horse being pts, I am very grateful for all your opinions.

I should also add, that all those who contacted me told me the exactly the same thing - which is rather unusual on here!

I'm now off the Mole Valley to start on her new feed program, order the rest on ebay and get a vets diagnosis.

I couldn't find a yummy cupcake photo... so here's a cute miniature instead!!
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I'm :confused:.

How can you know what you have been told is correct without having the vet or blood tests?

We have somebody on our yard who follows an EPSM diet due to powers of google. She definitely hasn't had a blood analysis done. From what I can see from the diet, it certainly isn't going to do the horse any harm but if people are self diagnosing and treating 'diabetes', where does it stop :eek:?
 
quirky said:
I'm :confused:.

How can you know what you have been told is correct without having the vet or blood tests?

We have somebody on our yard who follows an EPSM diet due to powers of google. She definitely hasn't had a blood analysis done. From what I can see from the diet, it certainly isn't going to do the horse any harm but if people are self diagnosing and treating 'diabetes', where does it stop :eek:?
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It stops when vets and farriers ALL recognise the impact of small diet changes on horses and when ALL horse owners realise that a high fibre, minimal sugar diet with balanced minerals is the right diet for EVERY horse, not just those of use wanting not to use shoes.
 
cptrayes said:
It stops when vets and farriers ALL recognise the impact of small diet changes on horses and when ALL horse owners realise that a high fibre, minimal sugar diet with balanced minerals is the right diet for EVERY horse, not just those of use wanting not to use shoes.
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I'm not on about just diet though. Anybody who has looked into the 'barefoot diet' can see it is no way detrimental to any horse, shod or shoeless.

I wouldn't self diagnose myself with diabetes or anything else for that matter, nor would I ask an appropriate forum to do so either.

I'm rather :eek: that people take as gospel something a few (maybe more) people have said.

As I said, where does it stop?
In this case, harmless changes appear to have been made. Next time, will that be the case :confused:?
 
cptrayes said:
It stops when vets and farriers ALL recognise the impact of small diet changes on horses and when ALL horse owners realise that a high fibre, minimal sugar diet with balanced minerals is the right diet for EVERY horse, not just those of use wanting not to use shoes.
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Not for EVERY horse, just most of them.

It doesn't work at all for my 37 year old. He is still alive because of the amount of sugar, cereal etc etc I pump into him every winter and the nice sugary spring grass which picks him up at the end of it.
 
The important point is the diet changes aren't rocket science! They are based on what horses have evolved to eat that doesn't upset their gut and provides the basics of mineral supplementation and amino acids. The effect of excess starches and sugars and not enough 'trickle' low NSC forage is catastrophic for many horses and a source of ongoing less severe ones in others.
I believe the barefooters have realized this because they have been able to see clearly the response of their horse to diet. It isn't a barefoot diet it's a basic horse diet! lol
Those who haven't should think about enrolling in the free online equine nutrition course, it is an introductory course.

Best wishes op. x
 
Is that aimed at me Tally?
I think you'll find that metoformin is prescribed for pre diabetes.
Diabetes was just an example to make a point. A point that seems to have been missed but never mind :)
 
quirky said:
I'm :confused:.

How can you know what you have been told is correct without having the vet or blood tests?

We have somebody on our yard who follows an EPSM diet due to powers of google. She definitely hasn't had a blood analysis done. From what I can see from the diet, it certainly isn't going to do the horse any harm but if people are self diagnosing and treating 'diabetes', where does it stop :eek:?
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According to Beth Valentine, the EPSM diet, if followed correctly, is diagnostic in itself, and as its not detrimental to the horse, I can't really see a problem with trying it out for 6 months and seeing if it helps. :)
 
quirky said:
Is that aimed at me Tally?
I think you'll find that metoformin is prescribed for pre diabetes.
Diabetes was just an example to make a point. A point that seems to have been missed but never mind :)
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Where does it say that? It only says to prescribe metformin if hba1c is over 6.5 after lifestyle intervention. Also, if actually diagnosed with type 2, you only get told to self monitor alongside lifestyle intervention first. No one ever gets metformin straight away.
 
I echo Op. Have had great help and support. As long as its not detrimental to the horses wellbeing being shown alternative pathways to research and try when professionals can offer no more is so helpful. And the results often speak for themselves :-)
 
tallyho! said:
Diabetes is so common these days, it's like the common cold. So many people and friends I could diagnose with prediabetes. There is no medication for that by the way...

If you look on the NICE algorithm the first course of medical intervention is.... Diet and exercise. Page 23... http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/11983/40803/40803.pdf
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Oh so true:( I had blood tests done in December and I knew that my cholesterol might be a little high. What I didn't anticipate was my blood sugar being raised. I'm not overweight but I'd not been taking much care with my diet and was living mostly on carbohydrates. I'd been feeling down and tired and generally not right. Four weeks ago I took most of the carbs out and switched to an Atkins type healthy diet. I feel better than I have in ages both physically and mentally just by changing my diet.
You really are what you eat and it's the same with horses.
I've also been one of this who's really benefited from the advice given by our barefoot experts on here. Cob's feet are loud and healthy and last time the farrier visited he needed no trimming or treatment. Result. :)
 
quirky said:
I think you'll find that metoformin is prescribed for pre diabetes.
Diabetes was just an example to make a point.
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For type ii, which is the only one we talk about on this forum affecting horse feet, it is only prescribed in the vast majority of cases if people won't make the diet and lifestyle changes that will sort it out without meds.

I speak as an atypical thin borderline type II diabetic, by the way. so I know not all type ii diabetics are that way because of their diet/lifestyle
 
rockysmum said:
Not for EVERY horse, just most of them.

It doesn't work at all for my 37 year old. He is still alive because of the amount of sugar, cereal etc etc I pump into him every winter and the nice sugary spring grass which picks him up at the end of it.
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Point taken but at 37 you're only worried about keeping him alive, not whether his feet or the rest of him are in a fit state to do a normal workload. You're obviously doing well to keep him going, I hope he's grateful.
 
Quirky - I do understand what you are saying and I will be seeking further veterinary advice/tests regarding this. BUT the change in diet is not detrimental to her so I cannot see an issue with trying.

I know she has intolerances to certain foods, so going back to "basics" might just help her even if nothing is wrong medically.

Her hooves do show a lot (look at the other thread to see photos) and I don't have a local barefoot trimmer/podarist in my area so seeked peoples opinions/advice on her.

A lot of what was posted and PM'd to me all tied in - coincidence?
 
I did say I agree the diet will do no harm whatsoever and may even be better than her current diet :)
Not sure how we went off on a tangent, probably my fault :o.

Still stand by what I say though. There are people on here who treat their horse for ulcers, regardless of the fact they haven't been scoped, let alone diagnosed.
 
Tally, I know a pre diabetic on metformin. There was no hanging about or diet/lifestyle monitoring.
4 years on, still pre and still on metformin.
So, like horses, no 2 people are the same :)
 
I don't understand why feeding a horse a diet which suits its evolutionary needs more closely than some bagged products is controversial? Or am I being exceptionally dim today? In which case I blame chemo head :-)
 
My tb does really well on the 'barefoot diet', feet have improved quality, weight correct, good coat and nice even, chilled out temperament - to deal with and in stable anyway, he's not adverse to hoolying in the field.
 
LucyPriory said:
I don't understand why feeding a horse a diet which suits its evolutionary needs more closely than some bagged products is controversial? Or am I being exceptionally dim today? In which case I blame chemo head :-)
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If you are then I am too. :D

Tbh if we stuck to these diets for most horses most of their lives I think they would fare so much better all round.
 
quirky said:
Still stand by what I say though. There are people on here who treat their horse for ulcers, regardless of the fact they haven't been scoped, let alone diagnosed.
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So what? The treatment is tried and tested and has pretty much no side effects. Giving it is cheaper than the scoping to find out if the horse has it.

It's another case where the efficacy of the treatment is in itself proof that the horse has acid related issues, some of which (hind gut ulcers) don't even show on scoping.

Now, what I DO worry about is the absolutely rampant use of unprescribed bute. That often does cause problems, sometimes serious ones, especially to brewing abscesses and horses with frail livers.
 
Diets for horses with ulcers, laminitis and that tie up are diets suitable for the vast vast majority of horses.
A lot of these problems can be prevented or sorted by diet
Can't see problems occurring due to following a high fibre, low sugar diet....the horse is designed to eat this, whether diagnosed with lami/tying up/ulcers etc....
 
Basically, for years people have been ripped off by farrier's and their black arts, vets and feed companies. If you cannot feed an animal it's correct diet you shouldn't be keeping them. No wonder there are so many EMS type illnesses knocking about lining the vets pockets. Food companies are at it as well, look what they give parents to feed their children, never mind horses.
I'm all for Oberon, Cptrayes and whoever else knows about appropriate diets to keep on giving advice. Only an idiot wouldn't take it.
 
Pale Rider said:
Basically, for years people have been ripped off by farriers and their black arts, vets and feed companies. If you cannot feed an animal its correct diet you shouldn't be keeping them. No wonder there are so many EMS type illnesses knocking about lining the vets pockets. Food companies are at it as well, look what they give parents to feed their children, never mind horses.
I'm all for Oberon, Cptrayes and whoever else knows about appropriate diets to keep on giving advice. Only an idiot wouldn't take it.
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I feel so sorry for people in the position I was in in about 1985 PR. I was a novice owner and Dodson and Horrel launched "Pasture Mix" onto the market. It was one of the first ever mixes. It smelt lovely, it looked lovely, and my horse loved it. I had no idea how bad it was for him to eat a muesli stuffed full of sugar, I trusted their marketing and had a horse with soles so flat and thin that he was routinely shod in pads :(

It was taking my horses barefoot that made me face up to what their diet was doing to their feet. I think it's one of the great achievements of the barefoot movement, to expose what modern horse foods are doing to horse health.
 
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cptrayes said:
I feel so sorry for people in the position I was in in about 1985 PR. I was a novice owner and Dodson and Horrel launched "Pasture Mix" onto the market. It was one of the first ever mixes. It smelt lovely, it looked lovely, and my horse loved it. I had no idea how bad it was for him to eat a muesli stuffed full of sugar, I trusted their marketing and had a horse with soles so flat and thin that he was routinely shod in pads :(

It was taking my horses barefoot that made me face up to what their diet was doing to their feet. I think it's one of the great achievements of the barefoot movement, to expose what modern horse foods are doing to horse health.
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I have to say, my oldie who lived (and was in full work) until nearly 40, showing, jumping etc, was fed pasture mix every winter for years with bran. He was as sound as a pound, other than two incidents of bruised soles over a ten year period, leading to very mild lameness for a couple of days.

That being said, I am all for a high fibre, low starch diet now. I try to stick as closely to this as possible with my mare. Though she is a good doer so fairly easily done.
 
quirky said:
As I said, where does it stop?
In this case, harmless changes appear to have been made. Next time, will that be the case :confused:?
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As I am mentioned in the thread title, I thought I should try and respond :).

I do take your point and I feel it is a valid point.

Advice from strangers on the internet SHOULD be taken with caution - we have not seen the horse in the flesh and the initial descriptives by the owner may not always be accurate (or truthful) :confused:.

Via the forum and pms (and sometimes my personal email account and text messages :o), I provide information and suggestions to HHO members (and their yard mates and friends :o) regarding hooves and diet.

Sometimes I am talking to owners who have reached the end of the road as far as their vets and farriers are concerned - and so horses who are on their last chance before PTS :(. It is quite scary and I often think I must be crackers to get involved in the first place :o.

However I do still get involved (idiot that I am) but I am cautious and very careful about how I phrase things ;).

And I always try, where possible, to hook the owner up with a professional I trust in their area who can be hands on.

I will admit there have been a couple of occasions where I have felt uncomfortable and refused to engage a pm asking for advice - such as, a horse who sounded to be in acute laminitis where the owner hadn't got a vet (I advised the owner to get the vet and get a diagnosis) and another was dietary advice for broodmares and youngstock - which I have no experience in, so I referred the owner to a professional independent nutritionist.

I don't believe I demand or dictate about what people do with their own horses - I provide information and suggestions. What people do with that is their own responsibility.
 
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