A tricky situation- please advise.

[Redders]

Hi there. Have an awkward situation on my yard and would appreciate some WWYD responses. V sorry but long!
I will start by saying that the horse is receiving all treatment needed and recommended by vet regardless of cost or labour intensity and I do not in any way begrudge that or the time it is taking up at the moment in any way shape or form- I just want her to be well again and have the best treatment as she deserves it.
The issue is she injured herself by standing on a nail in the ménage in a lesson. A big big roofing nail. They were working on the roof earlier in the day (I didn't know this until after the event) nail was clean, as in not used so likely to have been dropped.
So vet out all treatment given-vet bill standing at approx £500 so far, hopefully we have fixed it and she won't need anything else.
She is my horse and my responsibility and I will do whatever it takes to give her what she needs, but everyone on the yard and wider horse community, have said that the vet bill should be paid from YO liability insurance, as the ménage is not somewhere you should have to be worried about things like that being in there and it should have been checked after the roof work.
Now- I don't want to cause bad blood, don't want to leave my yard and didn't even consider the liability until so many people said it. As I was sat waiting for her to come round from sedation, it got me thinking- I hate seeing her like this, I am taking time off work for her care and vet visits, whilst doable, the bill is going to be a stretch, and she didn't do this to herself by just being a horse, or by me being a **** owner. The nail was left there by someone working on the yard. It upset me a little and I wondered how you guys may feel?

YO has said maybe she took the nail in with her (feet always picked out, without fail) but the walk to ménage is through the American barn and right next to it, so if so the nail was still somewhere it shouldn't have been- I feel it is also unlikely to be the case as it was vertical in the foot.

 

[ljohnsonsj]

I would for starters expect more sympathy from YO- That doesn't sound like a brilliant response to a horse that could have been made permantley lame from what really is someone doing a slack job- yes accidents happen but this shouldn't be done at your cost when it was someone elses mistake. Have you spoke about liabilty with your YO. If this was my horse i would expect some financial input atleast and a big apology- I'm not totally sure where the public liabilty would stand on something like this, I don't know a whole lot about insurances. The fact you wasn't told about the work/the area wasn't blocked off and the yard owner is showing little to no empathy and trying to shove the blame onto you all ring bells for me. Hope your mares feeling much better very soon, sounds like you are giving her the best care so i'm sure she will be.x

 

[mypegasus]

Whilst not wishing to comment on whether livery yard is liable.

Many years ago a friends horse did almost exactly the same thing although she picked the nail up on the yard. Within one or two strides we knew something was wrong as she was very reluctant to put her foot down. So I would have thought if your horse had picked the nail up walking through a barn on concrete you would have noticed before you got to the manege.

How far had the nail penetrated her foot? Did she react to it?

Hugs for you and some carrots for your mare plus lots of healing vibes

 

[Shay]

If you are insured then your insurer will automatically seek repayment from the YO's insurance - or indeed the roofer's depending on the contract. You don't have to get involved in that. But if you are not insured it would be worth speaking to the YO. It might depend on what type of contract you have with them and what the small print on their policy says. If they agree and claim then great - but it could be a protracted legal battle otherwise which probably isn't worth it in the long run.

 

[milliepops]

Goodness, what a horrible situation to be in. I think my initial response would depend on the nature of your set up on the yard, i.e. is it an informal yard with a few liveries with no written agreements etc (I've been in that situation before and it works for some, so no criticism if so) OR is it a formal arrangement with insurance, written agreements etc?

I think if it's the former, you will struggle to claim anything and it would likely lead to bad feeling & you leaving the yard.
If it's the latter, I think it's worth exploring. I hate the claim culture but I would expect a professional yard to take all precautions against something like this, Or at least warn everyone that there has been work on the roof so there might be nails in the sand - use at your own risk until fully checked! I'd be gutted if I was you.

 

[Orangehorse]

Yes I agree with the above. If the YO starts to get shirty, just say that that it isn't personal, but it is why people have insurance, to cover themselves if something happens.

Sympathies for your horse's injury, I hope she fully recovers.

 

[WelshD]

.....or indeed the roofer's depending on the contract.

I wondered that too

 

[ossy]

What a terrible situation but glad your horse sounds on the mend. I've known two other horses do the same thing and the outcome was not a rosey one. Firstly I would be very disappointed with regard the response of the YO to the situation, I'm not sure I'd like my horse in the care of someone like that but I'm full livery not diy. It would sound like there is some degree of liabity here whether it be the contractors or YO, if you are insured then I'd give the details to them and ask them to follow up, then you can kind of take a step back from actually driving a claim if you don't want bad blood. If your not insured then it's whether you actually want the hassle of making a claim against them yourself, if that's the case I'd want off the yard asap.

 

[Redders]

Not spoken to YO regarding liability or assist mace with bills- am too scared she will kick me off!
It's a proper set up with monthly standing order to pay livery, includes use of school and facilities etc. and she is insured too.
She really reacted- I initially thought she had broken her leg she was in that much pain, then finding the nail was a by of cold comfort as I thought at least we can treat this. It was 8cms long and went right in. Vet thinks we are lucky that it hasn't punctured any bursas.
Thank you for all your kind words, she is so miserable right now so I am making a big fuss of her so she doesn't think everyone is out to stick needles in her, send her to sleep or give hideous tasting medicine!

 

[Redders]

We are on DIY. Not insured (she is now though- it really scared me!) but obviously not for this incident and will prob be excluded now anyway. Trouble is nowhere to go really- and aside from nail incident, the yard is quite nice in terms of TO and facilities compared to other yards in the area. I was thinking maybe casually drop into conversation with YO how much it's costing? Then I can gauge the response or maybe they will offer?!

 

[Shavings]

Poor mare! and poor you!!
hope she gets better soon or at least can be made comfortable for the recovery
if it was me i personally would approach the YO why should you foot the bill for lack of checks?
the arena should have been closed or checked properly once the roof was done!
as others have said i doubt she would have picked it up on the yard as she would have reacted then!
and its not a small nail that could just "sit" in the groves of her hoof!
Best of luck OP let us know who you let on!

 

[milliepops]

In that case, personally I think I would have lost faith a bit in the yard, especially given the YOs response. I think I'd be looking at alternatives just in case, and asking for a contribution (50%? if you want to stay on good terms) towards vet bills. It's not something I would find easy, I usually look to avoid confrontation BUT perhaps the YO needs to up her game with respect to keeping a safe environment. Needing to dig into her pockets might avoid this kind of thing happening again.

Horrible situation to be in. I know some would just suck it up, some would move, some would have a big fight over it - I think there's a middle ground to be found. After all, why else does she have insurance, if not to cover for these sorts of eventualities?

 

[WelshD]

Could you approach the YO about the possibility of the contractors having insurance, that will indirectly indicate that you are looking in to things without placing the blame at their door

 

[ossy]

Mmm given her response already I'd be inclined to think that her come back to you would be you should have had the horse insured, I'm not passing judgement on whether you should or shouldn't have have but I can see that's what she'll say. Is there anything in your contract that says horses should be insured or anything about liability?

 

[eggs]

I think it probably does come down to the YO's legal situation with the roofing contractors but unfortunately I think the likelihood of you getting any recompense is pretty small.

We had one of our barn roofs redone recently. Despite me telling the project manager more than once of the need for all materials - including nails - to be picked up and bagged - I lost count of the number of nails I picked up from the floor when I checked the barn prior to putting the horses out.

I hope your mare makes a good recovery.

 

[FairyLights]

You need to see a solicitor are you a BHS member? if so ring their helpline.

 

[JoJo_]

Its a shame you wernt insured as it would be up to the insurance companies to sort it out and you wouldnt have to really get involved in that. I very much doubt your YO would help with your vet bills without her insurance being involved.

I would suggest you get some legal advice as to how to approach this with who is liable but anything legal has costs involved. It might not be worth it if the vet bill doesnt run into 1000s. Hope your horse has a speedy recovery!

 

[WelshD]

Its worth checking your home insurance for legal cover, mine has a free advice facility and cover for legal expenses. Lots don't realise this is usually general and not just for home issues

 

[ljohnsonsj]

I think you need to stop being so nice OP. The situation could of been much worse (thankfully it wasn't) and the YO's attitude towards the situation is poor. She would of been sweating when this happened,and now laughing because you are taking the whole costs. She/the building company whatever, own some responsibility here. I suggest mentioning it to her, on the side and not getting into a row but stating you was never told and that was a lack of responsibilty on the yard owners part, and now an accident has happened which you are footing the full bill for which isn't on. It shouldn't cause any bad feeling, especially if all your other liveries are agreeing with you.

 

[madlady]

Absolutely someone needs to take responsibility for this.

You should either be claiming from your YO and she in turn should be claiming from the roofing contractor, or claim directly from the roofing contractor yourself.

If YO throws her toys out of the pram it might be worth mentioning that, had a person stepped on that nail they would be claiming - why should it be different for a horse?

 

[Tiddlypom]

You need to see a solicitor are you a BHS member? if so ring their helpline.

This. Join now if you aren't already a member, and have no other source of free legal advice.


https://www.bhs.org.uk/membership/types-of-memberships/gold-membership

Tip toeing around being nice and hoping the YO will cough up all or part of the costs is unlikely to end well. The YO should be insured (she's crazy if she isn't, though it's not obligatory), and so should the roofers. Like another poster, I obsessively follow any workmen around checking for any hazardous materials left behind. I own a metal detector to help search for discarded nails etc and sweep the entire area several times with it. However, it can't detect debris in my arena as the rubber crumbs contains traces of metal from when it was reinforced tyre wall, so I get too much background noise.

Hopefully it can get sorted out without getting personal.

The vets bills could end up very big indeed after such an injury. All best vibes for a full recovery for your mare.

 

[SadKen]

Horrible situation to be in - I agree with the above re asking the YO re the contractors' contact details and insurance, it seems like a good opportunity to raise it. If you then approach them and see about making a claim, they may refer you back to the YO - but that's then what you've been told to do so it's not your fault.

Re the nails - I'd strongly suggest anyone having this type of work done asks the local metal detectorists' club to come down and sweep the school with their equipment - they would probably be pleased to help for a nominal sum and there's no way they would miss metal like that, even if partly/fully buried.

Hope your girl makes a swift recovery OP.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I think it depends on how much you like your current yard and set up as to how far you take this as such matters have a tendency to get rather nasty.

I had a totally unrelated situation last year whereby some of my tack was stolen from our locked tack room. It turned out the person that took it was an old livery who still had a key to the tack room. My insurance wouldn't cover it as not enough had been done to secure my property. Technically the YO was responsible as they hadn't ensured all keys were returned when people left, however I love the yard I'm on and felt that accidents happen so didn't pursue the issue.

I think in your shoes I'd feel the same way. These things happen sometimes, but I wouldn't be looking to rock the boat over it. That's not to say you shouldn't or couldn't pursue the YO or contractors, just from a legal stand point I'm not sure it would be worth it.

 

[sportsmansB]

I do think it is worth approaching the yard owner... after all, in the cost of your livery is the provision of facilities, and had you not been in livery but the work carried out at your own place, you would have checked and tidied up after the builders.
Perhaps around the time that your SO is due to come out, you could meet her and explain that due to the extremely expensive vets bills you need to talk to her about money, and see if you can come to an arrangement- she may not be in a position to actually give you money towards vets bills especially if she doesn't want to lose any no claims or whatever, but maybe a deal could be done on your livery cost for a set time- she should surely see that this is better than losing a decent livery over something which is her fault.
If the nail had been sticking OUT of the arena fence and your horse had cut themselves on it you would be looking at it being her responsibility as it is part of your livery cost for facilities to be kept up to standard.

 

[Redders]

Mmm given her response already I'd be inclined to think that her come back to you would be you should have had the horse insured, I'm not passing judgement on whether you should or shouldn't have have but I can see that's what she'll say. Is there anything in your contract that says horses should be insured or anything about liability?

That was what I was thinking she may say, although I know hers isn't and think she may say she would PTS, but at the moment that isn't a consideration as she appears to be recovering well. Asking about the contractors sounds like a good idea. Regarding moving, I have looked at options but could be a case of frying pan and fire!

 

[Redders]

Mmm given her response already I'd be inclined to think that her come back to you would be you should have had the horse insured, I'm not passing judgement on whether you should or shouldn't have have but I can see that's what she'll say. Is there anything in your contract that says horses should be insured or anything about liability?

I think you need to stop being so nice OP. The situation could of been much worse (thankfully it wasn't) and the YO's attitude towards the situation is poor. She would of been sweating when this happened,and now laughing because you are taking the whole costs. She/the building company whatever, own some responsibility here. I suggest mentioning it to her, on the side and not getting into a row but stating you was never told and that was a lack of responsibilty on the yard owners part, and now an accident has happened which you are footing the full bill for which isn't on. It shouldn't cause any bad feeling, especially if all your other liveries are agreeing with you.

This is what friends are saying- stop being so nice! I know I should but hate upsetting or angering people! You are totally right.
I am BHS gold so thank you for suggestion of calling for advice, I'll def do that x

 

[Redders]

It's a very good point saying if it was a person stepping on it, the only difference is the costs involved and the fact it's worse for a horse to step on a nail than a person. Funnily enough I did have a metal detector at home and a fellow livery who has been v helpful in all of this was due a lesson, so we went over the school before, I would hate anyone else to have it happen to them. I will speak to BHS for advice and mention about roofers insurance. That's even if it was a company- could have been local farmer doing it!!

 

[WelshD]

As someone has already said - do stress that its nothing personal, people are very quick to take it to heart but someone who has a yard as a business needs to be business-like no matter how small the yard

 

[Redders]

I'm going to have a think about how I can say it without causing offence and will post on here if that would be ok, get some good feedback.
I really appreciate all of the responses, they have been so helpful x

 

[Hackie]

Definitely get them to for out for the vet bills. Its pretty negligent to have nails lying around after work like that, as hoof punctures can be dangerous - if they get infected, they can travel up the leg and get really nasty.

All the best for your horse's recovery.

ETA on further reflection on this, if this had happened to my horse, I'd be ropeable, not just contemplating getting the vet bills paid.