A what would you do post

[ycbm]

I would rasp his teeth by asking the vet to sedate him. If his teeth have never been checked then there is certainly a possibility there could be a problem. Yes IMHO it would be worthwhile to force him to be sedated to check out his teeth and anything else. Would you really PTS a horse just because it dislikes being handled by a vet. Would I PTS a horse because it needs it's teeth rasping, most definitely not.

One of mine hated IV and when he was in horse hospital (he went there with colic) he had to be put in stocks each day so the girls could take his temperature and also to be sedated to be scanned etc.
Just because he hated it should I have PTS?
He has lived another 11 years since then.

He has his teeth regularly rasped, the vet uses a twitch to get the sedative in. He has a perfectly normal and happy life in between his annual tooth exams. He doesn't like the vet handling him to sedate but that is no reason to PTS.

He had a lump under his eye. No choice but for the vet to sedate. (alternative really would have been PTS)

The point is we often have to do things to horses that they may not like. Some they hate however those are for a very short time only. In some case those actions ie a vet sedating a horse or rasping it's teeth may well be the thing that gets if out of the pain causing it's aggression.

I don't think you are reading what W&R is writing properly.

He won't tolerate a vet near him doesn't respond well to sedatives as he reacts badly to feeling out of control.

ETA Why you would force this pony to undergo dental treatment, and expect a vet to put themselves in danger so that a clearly unhappy pony who has had to be carefully managed for 18 years so as not to endanger people, is beyond me. I am simply unable to understand what sort of special sanctiity of life there is for an animal who doesn't know or think about whether the sun will rise tomorrow. The only animal that will know anything about it is W&R, and in my view, though i accept fully it is not a view shared by you, she has done enough.
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[paddy555]

I don't think you are reading what W&R is writing properly.


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yes I read it perfectly well. I just don't happen to agree your view.

 

[AmyMay]

yes I read it perfectly well. I just don't happen to agree your view.

Maybe the horse could come and live with you?

Problem solved

 

[ycbm]

yes I read it perfectly well. I just don't happen to agree your view.

What you mean is that you don't believe what W&R is writing about the level of fear and danger with vets and sedation this pony has.

ETA I know someone who was in a wheelchair for a very long time and never properly recovered from injuries sustained by a horse that reacted badly to being clipped under sedation, sedation is not a guarantee of safety.
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[FinnishLapphund]

...
For my part it doesn't sit very well with me simply to PTS without seeing if something could be done.

It have already cost Windand rain 1 badly broken leg to keep this horse alive, she might not be as lucky next time. Personally I hope that if she wants to try to find out what was wrong with her horse, that she pays for a necropsy/equine autopsy.

 

[Clodagh]

At the end of the day the thread is titled ‘what would you do’ and as it highlights there are some people who never pts if there is any way to avoid it. I don’t agree with Paddy555, as I would never risk my children and dangerous horses are just not something I would want to live with but she is actually only saying what she would do.

 

[maisie06]

Little git is getting more aggressive he shoved kitten through the fence today. He has always been the one you could put in with anyone. Never thought he would go for another horse. Historically he has been aggressive to humans since being a newborn foal. He has been with me since he was 4 months old although not weaned until 8 months. He was gelded at a Europe center of excellence vets at 18 months. He has bitten and barged his way to a few human injuries including badly breaking my leg. He is now 18 and although losing willow is raw I really am fed up of having to accommodate him. He is currently on his own in a pen as he is making it difficult for the kids to visit the ponies. My thought are he has had too many chances but is that a knee jerk reaction to being low. I think I know your answers but don't want to do anything rash

I would have had him PTS when he did the leg breaking incident. being on his own in a pen doesn't sound like either you or he will have a great quality of life, you have done much more for him than many others would have done, and it's now becoming unfair on you and your other ponies - I think you know the answer and it would be the kindest thing for all your sakes.

 

[paddy555]

[

At the end of the day the thread is titled ‘what would you do’ and as it highlights there are some people who never pts if there is any way to avoid it. I don’t agree with Paddy555, as I would never risk my children and dangerous horses are just not something I would want to live with but she is actually only saying what she would do.

thank you.

 

[ycbm]

At the end of the day the thread is titled ‘what would you do’ and as it highlights there are some people who never pts if there is any way to avoid it. I don’t agree with Paddy555, as I would never risk my children and dangerous horses are just not something I would want to live with but she is actually only saying what she would do.

There would have been no problem if all she did was say what she would do herself. But her first sentence was judgemental and personal and uncalled for, and her subsequent replies indicated that she did not believe W&Rs explanations of the seriousness of the pony's behaviours, and that's why I and others have responded the way we have, not because we didn't like her disagreeing.

I am in a minority of one. I would be unable to PTS a healthy horse for my own convenience.

 

[paddy555]

What you mean is that you don't believe what W&R is writing about the level of fear and danger with vets and sedation this pony has.

ETA I know someone who was in a wheelchair for a very long time and never properly recovered from injuries sustained by a horse that reacted badly to being clipped under sedation, sedation is not a guarantee of safety.
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I am not going round circles. You have your view and I have mine. End of.

PS. Please don't PM me. I don't intend to have a repeat performance of last time.

 

[ycbm]

I am not going round circles. You have your view and I have mine. End of.

PS. Please don't PM me. I don't intend to have a repeat performance of last time.

I PMd you last time because you tried to continue a public argument with me and derail a thread with it.

For the sake of the thread and the person I criticised you for attacking, I took it off line.
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[ponynutz]

There would have been no problem if all she did was say what she would do herself. But her first sentence was judgemental and personal and uncalled for, and her subsequent replies indicated that she did not believe W&Rs explanations of the seriousness of the pony's behaviours, and that's why I and others have responded the way we have, not because we didn't like her disagreeing.

This is no more judgemental than what I wrote myself in my post. People didn’t pick up on any judgement because I went on to agree with the rest. I didn’t mean it judgementally and Im sure neither did Paddy. I think this disagreement should be taken to DMs given that this is a sensitive thread and if it cannot be end it here (not favouring either people here).

NB: just seen has been left alone at last update. feel free to ignore.

 

[paddy555]

I PMd you last time because you tried to continue a public argument with me and derail a thread with it.

For the sake of the thread and the person I criticised you for attacking, I took it off line.
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actually you accused me of lying.

 

[pistolpete]

I feel for you OP as an owner of a less than compliant retired equine. After 18 years you are going to make the best decision for your circumstances. Don’t think it matters a jot what anyone else would do. I would go by how will I feel after the event if it’s anything momentous. In this case I wouldn’t be able to pts a healthy animal but is he healthy seems the crux. So difficult. Very best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[SO1]

I do feel for you if he won't tolerate a vet near him and you can't sedate him to do this then it is must be very hard to get him checked by a professional. If they cannot touch him to check his teeth or take a blood test or take his temperature it is very hard to know if his increase in aggression in the field is due to feeling vulnerable due to not feeling well and if there was some treatment that could make him feel back to his normal self.

If you can catch him safely and if he stables ok and he is ok on individual turnout could you bring him in when the grandchildren come.

My concern would that the change in behaviour could be caused by not feeling well and that because he cannot be checked by vet then his may gradually get worse if whatever has caused the problem is not resolved.

You know your horse best and if you think his aggressive behaviour is due to ill health and he cannot safely be handled by a vet and is becoming increasingly more dangerous and unhappy then you have to do what you believe is best in this situation.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

My fear would be that given he has turned on a horse he has always got on with, that he might now turn on me. Even a small pony is capable of doing a lot of damage and this horse has history for damaging humans. A lot of horses don't even make it to 18, he is very lucky to be in the home he is. Don't risk your health or anyone else's by carrying on with him.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Does anyone remember TraceyAnn who used to be on here years ago, with the aggressive Spanish horse who's behaviour kept ramping up. Always wonder what happened to her.

This pony's behaviour seems to be escalating - it raises the question while he may look fine, is he actually "healthy" both physically and mentally? He's already broken OP's leg, and his behaviour is now escalating around horses - will it escalate even more with humans? This almost feels like a warning. OP has already given him 18 years which many wouldn't given he almost falls into the "dangerous" category. It's the same for dogs which aggressively bite humans. There are so many wonderful temperament animals out there, should OP have to put herself at risk for this one - he's already badly hurt her, and if he's getting more aggressive with horses, something he's never done previously, it suggests everything isn't as it should be, and perhaps wasn't from day 1 given how OP's had him from so young and he's always been aggressive to humans, yet suffered no bad treatment to have caused it.
OP also has the consideration of children on the property - other people's ones at that. I know she will probably have several things in place to take care of their safety, but as she said, they're curious. Imagine if something happened to one of them or OP.
Its a very personal choice, but if he is PTS, if he were mine I'd potentially consider a post mortem, just to try and see if I could get answers for why he's always been aggressive. Its like something isn't wired right, especially as he's never known bad treatment

OP has gone above and beyond for him and should have no guilt if she does decide to call it a day

 

[Xmasha]

personally i wouldnt hesitate in PTS. Youve done your best for him ( when many would have passed him on )
Some horse ( not many ) are born aggressive/wary of humans regardless of what has /hasnt been done. I witnessed the repercussions and believe me it wasnt pretty. I advised PTS, the owners didnt, the horse attacked again. Soon after this they PTS. Totally the right decision.

OP do what is right for you, your other other horses and your family.

 

[wills_91]

Pts discussions are always going to cause some disagreement & whilst the OP has asked for opinions and some have felt they could do more for the horse it is unfair for them to come on repeatedly suggesting more could/should be done when all the facts have been written by the owner of 18 years,suggesting further investigations when OP has stayed in several occassions that the horse would find it extremely stressful & dangerous for all involved. I'm sure after such a long time together it must be an incredibly hard decision to come to as it is without repeated "have you tried this" from pony patters.

 

[scats]

I’m late to this thread but I absolutely would support you putting him to sleep. No judgement here at all from me.
You’ve gone above and beyond what many others would have done for this horse.

 

[ponynutz]

I'm sure after such a long time together it must be an incredibly hard decision to come to as it is without repeated "have you tried this" from pony patters.

I think that’s harsh and not totally indicative of what’s been said.

(not aimed at you) but in general suggesting someone’s else’s point of view is wrong would suggest that if OP made the choice not to PTS that disagreement and judgment would be placed on them as well as anyone commenting on here. I’m sure if OP made the decision to not PTS that wouldn’t be the case but it does give that impression I’m afraid.

 

[dorsetladette]

another who would support PTS. Aggressive behaviour thats escalating is not a pleasant thing to manage (or second guess). For your own peace of mind I'd suggest a PM to see if there was anything causing it.

 

[AmyMay]

To be hones @windand rain I’d have put the horse down a long time ago.

Absolute kudos to you for persevering.

 

[Tiddlypom]

personally i wouldnt hesitate in PTS. Youve done your best for him ( when many would have passed him on )
Some horse ( not many ) are born aggressive/wary of humans regardless of what has /hasnt been done. I witnessed the repercussions and believe me it wasnt pretty. I advised PTS, the owners didnt, the horse attacked again. Soon after this they PTS

Me too, except that I heard of the repercussions rather than witness them.

I don't actually know if the horse was PTS, I hope that she was, but the very experienced owner was left in a permanent coma. She'd laughed it off when advised that the horse was a bad 'un, and said that she'd come right.

 

[FestiveG]

Sadly there will always be people who believe that every horse or pony should be "saved", often even if that compromises the well being of said animal, those around it and the owners. They are often vociferous and insistent and very quick to take offence.

 

[blitznbobs]

Years ago I had a GSD and he was the softest dog possible … then one day he collapsed and the vet said he had been stung by a bee and had had an allergic reaction. He changed over night from a great big bundle of fluff to an aggressive dog. He never went for anyone in the family but guarded us like he was on a mission. The day came when I was mucking about in the garden with my brother (we were teenagers at the time) and throwing water at each other and the dog must have thought my brother was trying to attack me (which he was i suppose in a way) he went for my brother.

Luckily my brother wasnt injured more than a scratch on his arm but the dog was pts by my parents the next morning and the vet took him for autopsy at their request.

This dog had been seen by behaviourists and vets etc but it turned out they had all missed the obvious (in retrospect) the collapse episode wasnt the bee sting (and he had definitely been stung by a bee) but caused by the massive haemorrhagic stroke he had had…

He looked like the fittest healthiest dog going and he was a very damaged boy indeed.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I have to be honest, if I had a dangerous/aggressive animal who was that way from birth, he likely wouldn't have made it to 3yo with me.
I would have no judgement here for PTS W&R, there will always be people who will go that step further, and often to the detriment of the owner and/or horse. You have given this horse the best life he could possible have, and it sounds like you are considering giving the kindest end if he is as unhappy as it sounds.
Look after yourself, differing opinions on a thread as emotional as this will always have its toll on you.

 

[Landcruiser]

I would definitely PTS at this point, and probably before. It's just not worth the risk of him hurting someone else - and he will, at some point.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I have to be honest, if I had a dangerous/aggressive animal who was that way from birth, he likely wouldn't have made it to 3yo with me.
I would have no judgement here for PTS W&R, there will always be people who will go that step further, and often to the detriment of the owner and/or horse. You have given this horse the best life he could possible have, and it sounds like you are considering giving the kindest end if he is as unhappy as it sounds.
Look after yourself, differing opinions on a thread as emotional as this will always have its toll on you.

Exactly, he wouldn't have made it to 3 with me either. It's not like it's a small animal, a dangerous horse can cause catastrophic damage

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I would rasp his teeth by asking the vet to sedate him. If his teeth have never been checked then there is certainly a possibility there could be a problem. Yes IMHO it would be worthwhile to force him to be sedated to check out his teeth and anything else. Would you really PTS a horse just because it dislikes being handled by a vet. Would I PTS a horse because it needs it's teeth rasping, most definitely not.

One of mine hated IV and when he was in horse hospital (he went there with colic) he had to be put in stocks each day so the girls could take his temperature and also to be sedated to be scanned etc.
Just because he hated it should I have PTS?
He has lived another 11 years since then.

He has his teeth regularly rasped, the vet uses a twitch to get the sedative in. He has a perfectly normal and happy life in between his annual tooth exams. He doesn't like the vet handling him to sedate but that is no reason to PTS.

He had a lump under his eye. No choice but for the vet to sedate. (alternative really would have been PTS)

The point is we often have to do things to horses that they may not like. Some they hate however those are for a very short time only. In some case those actions ie a vet sedating a horse or rasping it's teeth may well be the thing that gets if out of the pain causing it's aggression.

Your horse only hates humans/what they're doing to him during a few minutes/hours maybe a few days per year if he needs veterinary treatments that year.

Windand rain's horse can be/is aggressive to humans 365 days per year (some years 366), regardless whether veterinarians, and sedation is involved or not. But if/when they are, it's just even more reason for him to be aggressive.

Your horse can be twitched, and even though he hated the treatments he had to undergo at the veterinary hospital, he still didn't made it impossible to put him back in the stocks each day after day when he was at the vet hospital.

Windand rain's horse is known to both bite and barge his way, I don't think I would want to be one trying to put neither a nose twitch, nor grab skin on neck with your hands as a twitch, on him. And probably not an ear twitch either.
I've seen a Swedish documentary from a veterinary hospital were one time when they tried to put yet another horse in stocks, the veterinarian stopped the attempts, and said the horse could not be put in stocks. I can't imagine that was the one, and only horse on the planet that can't be put in stocks, so maybe Windand rain's horse is another one that can't be put in stocks.

Your horse presumably isn't a bigger risk to children's lives than any other horse.

If one of Windand rain's grandchildren, or other children on the yard forgets that they must keep away from this horse...


I can see that there is some basic similarities between your horse, and Windand rain's horse, but at the same time, I think it sounds as trying to compare a car with turbo, and other extra add-ons, with a jumbo jet. Yes, they're both vehicles, and yes, it's not an ordinary car, but it's still not a jumbo jet.