Abnormal behavior - opinions/advice

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niagaraduval

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Hi all,

I have been experiencing some very strange behavior in one of my boys.

I can give a few examples, although I don't live on site in the summer and I can't be there all the time, however I have had him for 10 years so obviously I know him inside and out.

2 days ago I used some fly spray bought from my vets (some potent stuff) which was to be diluted in water and then sprayed. I diluted it and sprayed the horses. However, one seems to be acting very strange.

Firstly, for the last few days (possibly longer but I don't know for sure) he has been acting strange, trotting in circles in his field on his own (2 fields are open, the horses were in one and he was on his own in the other) until he is dripping in sweat, he apparently has done this for the last 2 days each time my sharer has been up the field she has seen him do this, as have the neighbors. Although I don't know how long it's been going on.

However, whilst researching (scaring myself!) I have noticed that several symptoms of neurological issues are :
- Strange behavior
- Nervousness
- Unbalanced

I can say that my horse over this past year has experienced all of this.

The strange behavior - Over these past few days (coincidence since I sprayed him with new spray ?)

He has always been nervous, so I can't say that it is a symptom as such.

But he has been tripping occasionally, he is quite lazy so I thought he was just being lazy as the farrier has never picked up on anything.

He also spooks for nothing, when he never has done in the past. He also can barely be tied up, he randomly freaks out and spooks until he ends up breaking free.

There are a few things that I have noticed however it's nothing serious or worrying I don't think just general observations.

Last night I hosed him off completely and walked him in a cooler until dry, so if the fly spray was the problem hopefully having washed it all off he should be ok ?

Looking back on this past year I have picked up on a few things, but didn't think much of it.

Should I be calling the vet to arrange tests right away ? Should I still be riding him ? Could fly spray really cause this behavior ?

I spoke to the vet last night and he really didn't seem that bothered and said to call him if he continues to trot in circles.
 
Have you stopped using the spray?

If yes, hopefully the symptoms will subside. If they don't (it might not be related to the spray) then the vet will have to come and look at him.
 
I have stopped using the spray, the last time (and only time) I sprayed it was 3 days ago. I also washed him all off completely last night so there would be no spray left on him.

This does seem quite an extreme reaction though if it is the fly spray ?
 
Personally, I'd be looking for another reason than the fly spray. Anything your vet recommends will be licensed for horses and exhaustively tested. Coincidence? Watchful waiting is what I'd do. If he doesn't improve, call the vet and check eyes and brain. He's not coming to harm at the moment, is he? Personally, i wouldn't ride mean time on the grounds of safety -- and I'm a coward!
 
First thing I'd do before heading off on the vet trip is to feed a tablespoon of Epsom salts twice daily for a week and see if he behaves any different.

It could be a reaction to increased grass activity which can lead either to Magnesium deficiency, usually experienced in spring, or grass staggers caused by endophyte growth in the base of the grass plant.

Both can make horses spooky and overly sensitive, staggers as the name suggests causes the horse to move in an unbalanced way, tripping being one of the symptoms.

In NZ Grass Staggers is often a problem at the end of summer when the drought breaks and we get rain. The stressed grass produces endophytes that produce toxins that affect the horse.

Normal treatment is to remove horse from grass and feed with hay. Give a couple of bran mashes with a handful of Epsom Salts in it, helps to move affected grass out of the horse fast. Then horse can either be given a commercial product or you can try this old stock mans recipe.

Feed twice Daily for a week, then once daily until all symptoms go, then use a dessertspoon amount daily.

1 Tablespoon each, Epsom Salts, Baking Soda, Brewers Yeast and dried Thyme.

Works really well.

If this doesn't work within a week then talk to your vet.
 
UPDATE :

Hosed horse off as I thought it was the fly spray, I hadn't seen him running around in circles for a few days so put it down to the fly spray.

Until shock horror, turned up to ride and found him dripping in sweat and a massive circle in his field where he had been trotting around again. Neighbors said he had been trotting for about 2 hours non stop, round and round.

Had the vet out this morning, who tranquilized him and did an internal search for anything to rule out colic.

Nothing found inside, or out.

Blood has been taken for a test, the vet will phone me back this afternoon with results, although he thinks it is a neurological condition.

I'm so upset and scared that my horse has something really wrong with his brain :(

The vet had never seen anything like it before.

The results should determine the problem, what the cause is and of course if it is treatable, and if not if said horse can still be ridden and lead a semi normal life.

I'm sitting by the phone and hoping for good news.
 
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Sadly I knew a horse that did that (wore circles in the field), I hadn't wanted to worry you earlier as he was PTS as it was neurological and nothing could be done. You can't keep a horse, even as a pasture puff if it walks circles rather than eats, which is what happened in that case.
 
Mine too has worn a massive circle in the field, it's like a perfect circle.

He is still eating though and doesn't do it all the time, only on occasion, although it is becoming more and more often.

When ridden, he shows no signs of any illness, he is fine.
 
That one was also fine ridden (although they did stop riding as he got worse), but he'd have just slowly wasted away. Stabling didn't help either. There really wasn't a choice.

I hope that yours is not like that. *vibes*
 
What area are you in? I've seen similar behaviour due to crab flies, if they get one it can cause intermittent odd patterns of behaviour
 
Thanks for that Digger. I have just googled and I think I have seen some before, do they really like to hang round ? I had 2 things flying round my boys yesterday especially legs/tummy, I just thought they were bots as it's the season and I have been removing eggs lately, they were quite fast so I didn't see exactly what they were.

Blood tests results are back - all ok.

Which is worrying.
 
niagaraduval said:
Thanks for that Digger. I have just googled and I think I have seen some before, do they really like to hang round ? I had 2 things flying round my boys yesterday especially legs/tummy, I just thought they were bots as it's the season and I have been removing eggs lately, they were quite fast so I didn't see exactly what they were.

Blood tests results are back - all ok.

Which is worrying.
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They can really drive them crazy, particularly if they get up in the sheath. I've seen horses trot round and round due to bot flies too, we have a couple that just have to come in when they're around.
So don't give up hope, it really could be something that simple. Worth waiting whilst winter arrives anyway and monitoring his behaviour
 
If you look on youtube type in Seizures in horses ,there is a video of a horse on a circle in a paddock,some one on here quite recently was talking about seizures,and said when a horse is having a seizure the brain compels the horse to do this,the character of the horse also changes , and some are described as having panic attacks.
Ask your vet how much he knows about seizures,some vets seem to know a lot and
others very little.
I have had horses for many years and can tell you they are becoming more of a problem.
Hopefully this is not the problem with your horse ,but if it is he will need to treated as soon as possible..
 
shergar said:
If you look on youtube type in Seizures in horses ,there is a video of a horse on a circle in a paddock,some one on here quite recently was talking about seizures,and said when a horse is having a seizure the brain compels the horse to do this,the character of the horse also changes , and some are described as having panic attacks.
Ask your vet how much he knows about seizures,some vets seem to know a lot and
others very little.
I have had horses for many years and can tell you they are becoming more of a problem.
Hopefully this is not the problem with your horse ,but if it is he will need to treated as soon as possible..
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Thanks for your reply, I have searched on youtube however I can't seem to find the video? I have only found horses having seizures on the ground (mine trots in a circle).
 
I had a mare whose temp control was always a bit hopeless. On the hottest day of the year (30+ degrees) she started cantering in circles. We brought her in and put cold wet towels on her head and neck and she was fine thereafter. I must admit though that a few years later, she died of a stroke.

We always said that she had been trying to create a breeze to keep cool when she was circling.
 
Do a search, earlier this year or last year someone else had a pony trotting endless circles in the field... I don't know how or if it was resolved or diagnosed but it's on H&H somewhere.
 
Thanks for that Applecart, I now think (as does vet) that we are looking into neurological problems, our vets have never seen this kind of behavior and are supposed to be contacting a specialist and ringing me back.

I haven't heard anything yet, but will ring tonight if they still haven't contacted me.

Fingers crossed please everyone, if it is neurological issues, depending on the problem & treatment, I think he will probably join the angels in the sky, he has too many health problems and I would rather him going with us all and knowing we loved him rather then him not knowing where he is, who we are or hurting himself/us.
:(
 
niagaraduval said:
Thanks for that Applecart, I now think (as does vet) that we are looking into neurological problems, our vets have never seen this kind of behavior and are supposed to be contacting a specialist and ringing me back.

:(
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If they think it is neuro problems then is this diagnosis based on a neuro examination by your vet? Not sure why he needs to consult a specialist if he can undertake a neuro exam himself to see if there is an defecit (but I am not an expert)???? Neuro problems can manifest themselves in a number of ways, examples can be: eating too much red clover ~(contains cyanide), it can be due to chemical intake from crop spraying (the wind can carry this across many fields onto your pasture) as well as eating toxic plants, and it can also be due to other health concerns such as EHV (Equine Herpes Virus) , cerebral abiotrophy, EPM, back pain, tumour, poor nutrition and parasite migration. Not suggesting your horse has any of these but all these would need to be considered.
 
He didn't do any sorts of tests, it was mainly a blood test and just general observation TBH.

He phoned, he has said that it seems he has a neurological problem that affects the brain in the same way an epileptic seizure would.

He said to watch him closely and see if he has been in his circle again.

He explained that it would not be treatable however treatment would lessen the chances of him having outbreaks.

Some horses have an outbreak for a few days and then never have one again, some have outbreaks every few months at a time or once a year and for some, they get worse in time.

He has however said, that work does not affect it and he sees no problem with riding him and working him just as before.

Treatment would be for the rest of his life and would be 'heavy', morning and night. It would cost around £120 a month to treat him.

They said that the dosage would be in function of his outbreaks. At times where the outbreaks are more frequent, the dosage would be higher and vice versa.

I'm not sure how this affects him though, it was a long conversation and lot's to understand, I still have many unanswered questions though.

Does this mean the horse is in pain? Is he suffering ?

He explained that apart from when he had an outbreak he would be his normal self and even before and after the incident be himself.

Is it just the fact of treating to avoid outbreaks to avoid him from possibly hurting himself ? or is it something that he feels pain ? Does not treating him have an affect on him ? Would it be possible to just be prepared for the outbreaks when they do happen rather than having him on medication for the rest of his life ?

There's so much to look into..
 
niagaraduval said:
He didn't do any sorts of tests, it was mainly a blood test and just general observation TBH.

He phoned, he has said that it seems he has a neurological problem that affects the brain in the same way an epileptic seizure would.

He said to watch him closely and see if he has been in his circle again.

He explained that it would not be treatable however treatment would lessen the chances of him having outbreaks.

Some horses have an outbreak for a few days and then never have one again, some have outbreaks every few months at a time or once a year and for some, they get worse in time.

He has however said, that work does not affect it and he sees no problem with riding him and working him just as before.

Treatment would be for the rest of his life and would be 'heavy', morning and night. It would cost around £120 a month to treat him.

They said that the dosage would be in function of his outbreaks. At times where the outbreaks are more frequent, the dosage would be higher and vice versa.

I'm not sure how this affects him though, it was a long conversation and lot's to understand, I still have many unanswered questions though.

Does this mean the horse is in pain? Is he suffering ?

He explained that apart from when he had an outbreak he would be his normal self and even before and after the incident be himself.

Is it just the fact of treating to avoid outbreaks to avoid him from possibly hurting himself ? or is it something that he feels pain ? Does not treating him have an affect on him ? Would it be possible to just be prepared for the outbreaks when they do happen rather than having him on medication for the rest of his life ?

There's so much to look into..
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I really am feeling for you and your boy and I don't want to sound harsh but based on the info YOU have posted, my advice is to get another vet experienced in neuro to look at this horse now in person and not base any further action on a 2nd hand phone conversation!

Please keep us posted. Best luck.
 
I'm going to try those tests applecart has linked and see myself, I am also going to find another vet for a second opinion I think, because I was also quite surprised that he only came to see the horse once and only did a blood test. No other tests were done and I'm not sure how they can be so sure (and almost pushing me to start treatment now!) of something when they haven't properly assessed him.

I have no idea how I will find a neuro vet, but I'll start researching.

I'll keep you all updated.
 
OP, feel free to PM me as my mare had epileptic seizures for 16 of the 18 years I owned her. Circling is indeed a symptom of neurological problems and it is interesting that your horse is 13 years old - the most common time for unspecified neurological problems to begin is 11 and into the early teens. My mare was rising 13.

Certainly have a complete neurological work-up done on the horse. Be careful of what you feed (minimize sugar and if you can keep to organic products, I would). Use only natural fly spray (cold tea, vinegar and teatree oil shaken together works well) and check that farmers haven't been spraying anything in the adjoining fields.

I believe it is absolutely true that neurological problems are on the increase in horses although this is possible because we recognise them better. They are definitely MUCH more common than is generally accepted. Many vets will never see a case and there are an awful lot of old wives tales and ignorance about the subject out there. I found out that my vet's practice had 3 other equines as well as my girl who had had repeated seizure and they didn't have that many horses on the books as it was a truely mixed practice of pets, farm animals and horses being a suburban practice. I personally know of at least 7 "fitters" in a 20 mile radius of my home.

If this does turn out to be seizure activity you can tell your vet from me that it is definitely worth trying to treat. My girl was on the appropriate drugs for 15 years and led a completely normal life, including competing at local shows, jumping, galloping etc. She died nearly 2 years ago as a result of severe arthritis and was rising 30 so I would call that pretty successful. You have the advantage that the drugs may well be cheaper than here in rip-off Britain!
 
niagaraduval said:
I'm going to try those tests applecart has linked and see myself, I am also going to find another vet for a second opinion I think, because I was also quite surprised that he only came to see the horse once and only did a blood test. No other tests were done and I'm not sure how they can be so sure (and almost pushing me to start treatment now!) of something when they haven't properly assessed him.

I have no idea how I will find a neuro vet, but I'll start researching.

I'll keep you all updated.
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I am so sorry about your horse I have been coming back to this thread hoping you would have some better news, I would ask for your horse to have a brain scan most large equine hospitals can do this, and I would think one of the senior vets will have extra knowledge in that field, a friend of mine had a horse that had a brain scan some months back at Newmarket and they sent the images to a specialist abroad I think, where abouts are you in the country? Get a referal to a hospital that can carry out the scan I wouldnt think you need to find the specialist is what I am saying the vet hospital will do that for you if they cannot diagnose the problem,, I hope you get some answers soon please keep us updated.

Just seen you are in France can your vet not refer you to a bigger practice that can carry out the scan this is what I would be doing, or is it different over there is that not the procedure?
 
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Pinkvboots said:
I am so sorry about your horse I have been coming back to this thread hoping you would have some better news, I would ask for your horse to have a brain scan most large equine hospitals can do this, and I would think one of the senior vets will have extra knowledge in that field, a friend of mine had a horse that had a brain scan some months back at Newmarket and they sent the images to a specialist abroad I think, where abouts are you in the country? Get a referal to a hospital that can carry out the scan I wouldnt think you need to find the specialist is what I am saying the vet hospital will do that for you if they cannot diagnose the problem,, I hope you get some answers soon please keep us updated.

Just seen you are in France can your vet not refer you to a bigger practice that can carry out the scan this is what I would be doing, or is it different over there is that not the procedure?
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The trouble with brain scans is that unless there is a lesion or tumour in the brain, they may well show absolutely nothing amiss.
 
fatpiggy said:
The trouble with brain scans is that unless there is a lesion or tumor in the brain, they may well show absolutely nothing amiss.
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This is exactly the response from my vet who offered to do scans and send him to the nearest horsepital which is 3 hours away but said he personally wouldn't because the scans are stressful, expensive and most of the time don't show anything at all, so we decided against it.

I will be looking into changing fly sprays and sourcing organic feeds/products if this is possible and would help him.

He's 13, so this is worrying for me fatpiggy :(

It's good to hear that the treatment worked for your mare, I was also told that the treatment is quite heavy and would be for life but it would help against seizures. It's strange though as for me I would expect the horse on the floor rolling about etc. but for him he just trots in circles non stop until he is dripping in sweat and he comes out of the seizure.

It all seems very complicated.

I'll PM you with a few questions.
 
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