absolute help, needed

Fairynuff

Fairynuff

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 March 2004
Messages
4,993
Location
italy
Visit site
I have a Border Collie who was part of a litter born here at home Sadly, no one wanted her as she was/is smooth coated (in Italy they arent wanted). I now have a BC of 7 years who is completely off her head but at the same time, desperate for a 1 to 1 relationship. She is 'off her head' in that she goes berserk if she hears a chain saw or whatever started up. She now attacks my other BC and has reduced her ears to tatters. I have tried to give her 1 to 1 attention but it hasnt helped. OH now thinks that its time to put her down (for her own good). I honestly do not know what to think and in moments of frustration, maybe he is right? She eats as little as poss and is violent towards herself. I would be happy to give her to someone who could sort out her problems but dont want to dump my problems on someone else. Help!
 
I'm really sorry but the older BC sounds really unhappy. Unless you know of someone who could really help her, then personally I would pts. Sorry it's just my opininon, and hopefully someone on here will be able to give you more constructive advice.
 
apercrumbie said:
I'm really sorry but the older BC sounds really unhappy. Unless you know of someone who could really help her, then personally I would pts. Sorry it's just my opininon, and hopefully someone on here will be able to give you more constructive advice.
Click to expand...

She is seriously unhappy. When i attempt to tajkake her out on her owm, she turns and comes back on her own after 2 minutes. I allow all to run loose as all of the land around is mine so no roads etc. She does calm down in the winter but the flat downstairs is let out every summer always by the same people. Now the peeps downstairs have always complained about my hens, my goats, my horses and my dogs so it is more than probable that they have 'done something' against my dogs, so....do I 'shoot them' , or, do I pts my blameless BC? Finding her a home is pretty useless as no one here wants to take on an old(ish) lady with her baggage.
 
Can you pinpoint when this behaviour first started? What could have caused her to react to certain stimuli? If you are aware that your neighbours are anti-dogs, then I wouldn't let my dogs out of my sight whilst they're around. If you think they may have harmed your dog, mentally or physically, then I would have a word & see if they disclose any relevant information regarding this.

For a dog to start acting out of character suggests either a frightening experience or illness. It might be an idea to have a thorough vet exam done to rule out illness.
 
Don't shoot the neighbours!!! Be a bit crafty & have a calm conversation with them regarding the dog. Even though it would be very tempting to hit them over the head with a sledghammer because of your suspicions, play it cool & establish if they did harm your dog in any way.

I am not an expert by any means & more experienced peeps on behaviour will hopefully give advice. :)
 
So, is she the smooth coated collie pup you could not sell? and she has these behavioural issues and attacks a younger collie in the household? am I understanding that correct?

When did the problems occur?
Was she "normal" at any stage?
You say the chainsaw sets her off and "other things" what other things?
When she attacks the other collie,is it random? when excited? when out? over food? upon your presence?
Are you thinking the neigbours have done something?
How much exercise (not uncluding, taking herself for a stroll around the property) and what is your set up, routine with the dogs?

It sounds like she has some serious issues, I would def not be rehoming her, if there are no options of working through her issues or help close to you (behaviour wise) then I would agree with your husband, she does not sound happy at all, and I feel for your other dog and the ear shredding :(
 
Sorry to hear your problems. Your dog sounds very unhappy and mixed up. Several years ago I had a BC who went equally strange for no apparent reason and he bit me and shredded my thumb, naturally he went straight to the vet who pts. The vet told me that BC's are known to be prone to brain tumours which cause the personality change, this was what my BC had. Maybe this is the cause of yours?? Is so maybe the kindest thing all round would be to pts?
 
jillashmore said:
Sorry to hear your problems. Your dog sounds very unhappy and mixed up. Several years ago I had a BC who went equally strange for no apparent reason and he bit me and shredded my thumb, naturally he went straight to the vet who pts. The vet told me that BC's are known to be prone to brain tumours which cause the personality change, this was what my BC had. Maybe this is the cause of yours?? Is so maybe the kindest thing all round would be to pts?
Click to expand...

Agree -This crossed my mind too. Best have a visit to the vets for a check.
 
CAYLA said:
So, is she the smooth coated collie pup you could not sell? and she has these behavioural issues and attacks a younger collie in the household? am I understanding that correct?

When did the problems occur?
Was she "normal" at any stage?
You say the chainsaw sets her off and "other things" what other things?
When she attacks the other collie,is it random? when excited? when out? over food? upon your presence?
Are you thinking the neigbours have done something?
How much exercise (not uncluding, taking herself for a stroll around the property) and what is your set up, routine with the dogs?

It sounds like she has some serious issues, I would def not be rehoming her, if there are no options of working through her issues or help close to you (behaviour wise) then I would agree with your husband, she does not sound happy at all, and I feel for your other dog and the ear shredding :(
Click to expand...

will try and answer all your questions as simply as poss.
yes, she is the smooth BC that no one wanted.

the problems became evident when she was just over a year old. She was born in June so didnt meet the downstair summer neighbours till the June of the next year.

She calms down a lot when the above leave in September.

She looses the plot when she hears the steam while Im ironing (she is outside), the hoover, drills, you name it...! She attacks oh when he hand cranks the tractor and has actually bitten him.

She attacks the other BC as soon as they are let out into the yard in the morning and continues to do so randomly throughout the day. My being there or not doesnt make any diff.

One of summer neighbours was a rather nasty person and took great delight in picking fights. 'Sadly', she died so cant ask her but Im sure something happened.

Her exercise is almost nil. The other dogs 'help' turn out the horses (11 of them) and bring them in. They come with me while I fence check, we go to the woods, to the burn and we go wandering. Bramble will come with us but after 2 mins will have hightailed it home and hides herself in her kennel or in a box. Ditto if I take her out on her own. Putting her on a lead doesnt work, she takes it as a sort of punishment.

She has a kennel in a run, like my other BC and had/has the liberty of my stable yard during the day-closed in the evening with feed then let out at 5.30 every morning.

Her mother had to be PTS about a month ago due to tumours and her sister is having radio/chemo therapy for a tumour affecting her brain, eye and her jaw. I hadnt thought about this as a possible reason. Would it be possible for a tumour to do such damage to her personality without killing her?

Thankyou all for your replies. Bramble (for the moment) isn't going anywhere and Im keeping them seperated.
Hope someone can shed some light on her behaviour. M.
PS, she only attacks Poppy( her neice) who arrived 3 years ago when she was 4 months old.
 
She doesn't sound a happy soul at all, I don't envy your position one bit. :(

With such a history of brain tumours in her immediate family, I think that would be a strong possibility - but it also sounds like there are other issues in there too.

To be completely honest, if it were me (I know, an easy thing to say when not in your position) I'd be leaning towards PTS. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but I think it would be best for all involved.
 
thanks . The pts issue is pretty horrible but the thought of her living the rest of her life in anguish fills me with even more horror. I feel like a bad mum.
 
I think given that her issues have spiralled so long ago it would not be connected to a brain tumour (even though they can have them mimic this behaviour) I think she has had some kind of bad experience and it has literally spiralled, in such an intelligent and sensitive breed it's very likely that she has become super sensitive to a multitude of stimuli stemming from jsut one, for e.g it's not uncommon for a dog with a thunder phobia to then become phobic of doors slamming or a loud noise outside that then stems to the dog being warey of going outside, I also think maybe in a large pack possibly has not helped and as you suggest some one on one time would have been the way forward to try and help her over come some of the problems, it's hard when you have a few to deal with one "that chooses to run back home" when you have more to tend too, and often it becomes a pattern and the dogs sees flight as a way of escaping the fear/phobia and without that one on one and help to get past it, it becomes burried and as time goes on becomes a learnt response and hard to get past, her issues have become her routine/life.
With the issues you describe she no doubt gets very anxious and this behaviour can lead to aggression/frustration and without knowing the trigger this alone will/would be hard to get past.
Letting them out on a morning will obs create excitement and excitement in an unstable dog with aggressive tendancies will indeed trigger the aggression, and the fact that she does not get and routine exercise/stimulation given her breed type is also pretty detrimantal to her psyloghical state also, she is instead turning all of her energies to other (unwanted) behaviours, and collies have alot of energy.

You would never get the help you need over a forum, you need an experienced behaviourist to advise and work with you both in your home, I dont think isolationg her form the others will help, I would def keep them together but keep her safely secure so thye can see and smaell on another but not get together for safety.
Can you take her home to live in the house?
What do you do when she attacks?

Is she toy orientated?
 
I would also rule out a tumour, it is highly likely given the family history :(
And agree, this needs specialised help if you are to pursue the issue.

I will take issue with the understimulation issue - yes, there are understimulated dogs and yes, I know collies who could take a lot more exercise than that, but I have a bitch who freaks out at what seems like nothing and will bolt for home, she won't even stay in our field for more than a few minutes before heading back to her kennel.

She also fence-runs and squeals.
We tried crating her to regulate her self exercise and we have walked the legs off her (see sig, we're not wanting for places to go).
She is infinitely more happy in a crate or on the hearth rug than out on a walk or in any wide open space.

She will NOT work. She'll maybe give you five to ten paces of perfect heelwork then realise the lead is off and she's gone.
She is incredibly evasive and will do whatever she can to get off the training field and back in the car. She knows that the minute her lead is off, she can do what she wants, which is generally, to leave the situation she is unhappy with.

It is not a pain or neurological issue for us, as her mother is exactly the same (fence running, squealing, has begun evading work in maturity) we have tried lots of different tactics to no avail - we just have to give her the best life we can and make her feel as secure as possible.

For you - there are much, much worse things that can happen to a dog than for it to have a painless death.
Please don't feel bad, two sets of friends have given sleep to chronic tail-chasers/self mutilators and believe me, the both families tried absolutely everything - dogs live in the here and now, if a dog is that seriously unhappy and other interventions have not worked, then you know you have tried your best and you have done the right thing for her.
 
i have a border collie he is the most dosile animal you will find, he is 8 now. but when he was 3 i was told feed a pince of sea weed salt in his food to help everything, was using it for about 2 months was great, then was told once he is used to it increase to 1/2 a teaspoon, was great for a month to 6 weeks.
then he started biting his tail and wouldnt stop had to put a collar on him you know the lamp shade collars to heal where he had eaten his tail, it heal and when collar came of he kept on doing this, vet said i might have to put him to sleep if he keeps self harming, any way i just decide to stop giving the sea weed salt and in a few days he was great, it was too rich to his blood and making huis blood feel itchy, well thats what vet said and was over the moon i got to the problem of it, so he is 8 now and is the best dog you will find soooooooo kind loves everyone and everything, my 2 j/r use him as a sofa to lay on top off lol.

but my point is check all diet ect, then if diffo not it then yes pts but i hope it works out for you as i know what in felt like when vet told me i might have to pts. good luck
 
Have to say I think this dog needs some good exercise and to learn that exercise is good, I'm talking 2 hours ish at least. She has somehow associated exercise with fear (possible other dog bowled her over or something is what I'm thkinking)
She sounds like she has not fitted in with a large pack life and collies can be incredibly stressy if not handled right or if they get hang ups.
I think as others have said you need a behaviorist but ultimately unless you are prepared to put the work in making sure she is exercised thoroughly and actively (i.e not just let out in space to exercise herself) I cannot see this improving much.
As Cala says, it is often hard to include a less enthusiastic 'pack' member for the owner, and this then leads to a downward spiral.
 
I have read and reread all of your replies and I have taken onboard all of your wonderful advice. I will make time to take her out (on a lead) as many times as i can each day and will try sweet talking oh into having her indoors. Ive already started looking for a good behaviourist and have been given phone numbers for two. I never realised how nice and friendly you all are here in the 'AaD' section! Its such a shame that the rest of the forum.....!!!! Thankyou all, Ill let you know Brambles progress/outcome .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top