Actually sore, or just thinks she's sore?

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TT55

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Following on from my previous thread about my mare's wither abscess...

The lumps on her side appear to be (touch wood) improving and don't seem to be causing her too much discomfort except for when I pick off the scabs (gross, but vet told me to do it).

However she's still tetchy about me touching where her wither abscess was... but not all the time... When I am shampooing her with the vet prescribed shampoo, she doesn't seem to mind me massaging shampoo into the area yet sometimes she flinches when I touch it in other situations. So i'm starting to wonder if this is now her thinking it's going to hurt rather than actual pain? An experienced horseman friend had a look at her today and reckons that it's just a learned behaviour now...

My question is... have you experienced a horse still thinking something hurts? Is there a way to tell the difference? And if she is just doing it because it's in her head, how long will it be before she forgets? I really don't want to put a saddle on her while she is still showing any sign of discomfort!
 
Personally I dont believe horses "think" they are sore, they either are or they aren't in my opinion. Perhaps the water from washing her is soothing the area, but if you touch it unexpectedly then it may well be hurting her. I think they can anticipate things, my boy gets funny as soon as the sudocrem comes out because he had a nasty injury a while back, but he doesn't then display symptoms of that area being sore just because it used to be, if that makes sense!
 
I was wondering how your pony is doing and found this new thread. I note your vet has now diagnosed possible folliculitis. This is just another term for dermatophilus or inflamation of the hair follicle caused by bacteria which has been activated by excess moisture caused by rain or sweat. I have photos on my phone of my horse when he had this condition and they look identical to yours. They improved drastically within a week and the skin started to heal in that time with the prescribed ointment.. I don't understand why your vet has given you a wash ( when over wetting is detrimental) and has not prescribed ointment to sooth and heal the skin.
No I am not a vet but have learned alot the hard way by using incorrect ointments and shampoos. It's up to you what you do but if things aren't improving I would want to know why. At worst a secondary infection can set in.
I think you mentioned little circular areas in the centre of some of the sores. If the skin is grey with possibly tufts of hair these are either areas of healing or which have escaped the infection. The healing skin will be grey for a while.
Regarding the possible sore wither, if your vet has not prescribed ointment to sooth and heal it may well still be very sore. You need the correct conditions to encourage hair growth. The hair is there to protect the skin.
I gave my horse two months off to give the hair time to fully grow back before riding, although I did lunge a few times after about six weeks to ensure horse was ok with saddle.
 
It absolutely is possible for horses to react because they think that something is going to hurt.

I was, until a head injury stopped us, in the process of rehabbing a horse after a kissing spines operation. It was very clear from how he moved loose that his back pain was gone. but it took about three months for him to stop anticipating pain when ridden. He would, for example, skip at the first request to trot, threatening to buck. Then he would realize that the transition had not hurt, and all the rest would be fine.

Another example was a horse I was rehabbing for lameness, who appeared quite lame when walking loose on my yard. So much so, that I got a head collar and rope to trot him up on flat ground to see what was what. But when I led him to the trot up area, he was completely sound as soon as the head collar went on. He did this a number of times. No-one will convince me that being led on a loose rein cured his lameness, he just trusted me that I wouldn't ask him to do something which would hurt, and it didn't.
 
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lamlyn2012 said:
I was wondering how your pony is doing and found this new thread. I note your vet has now diagnosed possible folliculitis. This is just another term for dermatophilus or inflamation of the hair follicle caused by bacteria which has been activated by excess moisture caused by rain or sweat. I have photos on my phone of my horse when he had this condition and they look identical to yours. They improved drastically within a week and the skin started to heal in that time with the prescribed ointment.. I don't understand why your vet has given you a wash ( when over wetting is detrimental) and has not prescribed ointment to sooth and heal the skin.
No I am not a vet but have learned alot the hard way by using incorrect ointments and shampoos. It's up to you what you do but if things aren't improving I would want to know why. At worst a secondary infection can set in.
I think you mentioned little circular areas in the centre of some of the sores. If the skin is grey with possibly tufts of hair these are either areas of healing or which have escaped the infection. The healing skin will be grey for a while.
Regarding the possible sore wither, if your vet has not prescribed ointment to sooth and heal it may well still be very sore. You need the correct conditions to encourage hair growth. The hair is there to protect the skin.
I gave my horse two months off to give the hair time to fully grow back before riding, although I did lunge a few times after about six weeks to ensure horse was ok with saddle.
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The shampoo that was prescribed seems to be working. I have gone from having to remove 6-7 scabs on Friday to only removing 1 today. She is left with little bald patches like you mention, but they do not seem to be sore. So overall there have been a big improvement in the folliculitis... I am ensuring she is fully dry before rugging up though; luckily the nice weather is helping!

What is concerning me now is the wither thing. Ointment is not going to benefit it as it has already healed over with new skin, which is why it's so confusing for us as the vet said the skin should not heal over if there was still infection. He has prescribed more antibiotics and if there is no improvement we will reassess at the end of the week and maybe try different antibiotics and/or penicillin. So frustrating!

Cptrayes, my vet also told me about about horses with KS like the one you mentioned. My farrier also told me of a horse that had been pricked when being shod previously. When he went to shoe it the next time, it walked away hopping lame. They put it on the walker and after a lap it was completely sound (it presumably thought getting the new shoes would hurt, but then soon realised they didnt!)
 
Glad to hear things are improving but am sorry about the wither area. My concern was that my horse may be left cold backed after this but he has been fine.
I note you say she is ok when you shampoo the area and wonder if it still necessary for you to shampoo this area when there is no longer infection there?. I'm just wondering if this is softening the skin or drying out the skin. My lads skin went a bit dry after healing and I gently put a bit of aloe vera gel on to moisturise it. Aloe vera did no harm at all.
I would try to leave this area alone as much as poss though as I think they get a bit suspicious sometimes.
I do hope this comes right for you soon. So frustrating.
 
The vet wants me to continue shampooing so that it doesn't come back. But he did say yesterday to reduce when there are no longer lesions, so i think i will just continue to shampoo the area with the last open lesion daily until it is gone.

Tnavas, I hope that it is just bruising from the rug. However, since so many other horses I know have had similar abscesses, it makes me wonder as they can't all be caused by heavy rugs (a friend said that one year he had 25 horses all get the same thing!). That said, all the others have cleared up much faster :(

Talking to the vet again on Friday. Tempted to just turn her away if things don't improve.
 
FWIW I agree with cptrayes. I've had a horse who I'm certain anticipated pain after the problem had been cured, and I had to spend quite a while encouraging her to move normally again.
 
TT55 said:
Tnavas, I hope that it is just bruising from the rug. However, since so many other horses I know have had similar abscesses, it makes me wonder as they can't all be caused by heavy rugs (a friend said that one year he had 25 horses all get the same thing!). That said, all the others have cleared up much faster :(
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It is surprising how much friction there can be over the wither with some rugs. I've had some horses get them with just one wool lined canvas rug. The more rugs that go on the more likely the horse will get sore. Each rug needs to be a little bigger than the one below it to ensure that all of them fit without friction.

I think I mentioned earlier that you can make a pad that will take the pressure off the wither. A thick piece of foam, some parka nylon and a strip of the hook side of Velcro. Then slip inside the cover so that some pokes out in front.

One thing that can cause wither sores is the rug that has a too big chest, as it settles it slides back and the bound edge sits hard on the wither.

If the scab has now completely gone I'd be inclined to wipe with a little meths to toughen up the skin.
 
All her rugs have necks and no binding on the wither. So not sure how i could get the pad to stay. Do you think sheepskin would have the same benefit? Would be nice if she could go naked, but it is still a bit chilly at night i think.
 
TT55 said:
All her rugs have necks and no binding on the wither. So not sure how i could get the pad to stay. Do you think sheepskin would have the same benefit? Would be nice if she could go naked, but it is still a bit chilly at night i think.
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Roll up some socks, or stuff a pair of socks and the stitch to the inside of the rug. Place one each side of the wither, close to the top of the rug so that they lift the rug up.
 
How is your horse now TT55.
Just posted some info for someone with a similar problem and wondered how yours is doing.
I remember you used salt water for a while and wondered if your vet ever took a skin scrape. Just interested to know if a secondary infection ( staphylococci) was present and if this was exacerbated by the salt water.
 
lamlyn2012 said:
How is your horse now TT55.
Just posted some info for someone with a similar problem and wondered how yours is doing.
I remember you used salt water for a while and wondered if your vet ever took a skin scrape. Just interested to know if a secondary infection ( staphylococci) was present and if this was exacerbated by the salt water.
Click to expand...

My mare is much better now, thank you! Not 100% just yet, but well on her way... There are no longer any open sores on her side, but now lots of bald patches. She is still a little bit tender on some of them, but not too bad. The wither is also greatly improved too and her reaction to being touched in the area is reducing every day. I'm fairly sure that any reaction she does have is mental (anticipation) now as when she is distracted (eating a carrot/ looking at strange horses/ being brushed in her favourite spot) she doesn't react at all...!

The vet told me that the infection was Staphlococcal, however he never took a skin scrape to confirm. The salt water did not seem to exacerbate it at all, although I think i probably only used it for 3-4 days until I got the medicated shampoo....
 
So glad to hear she's on the mend. It seems to take for ever for the hair to start to grow and will look a bit patchy for a while but at least you're getting there and have the spring to look forward to.
 
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