Adults/Show Producers competing ponies - The kids miss out

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Afrikaner

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Hi all

I was having a conversation with a friend last night who is big into showing.
I was amazed to hear that adult producers firstly ride ponies as small as section A's but the thing that has amazed me most is that these producers can ride as many ponies as they like to qualify them (the pony) for big shows such as Olympia, HOYS and RIHS then the owner gets to ride them at the finals?

How can this be fair? What I mean by that is how does this reward the family who have a pony that is not under production, but would equally qualify if it had a producer riding it and would also do as well if not better if going head to haed, both pony and rider.

Coming from a SJ background why are the rules not as they are here, the qualification is with pony and rider, not just pony.

I'm told (correct me if I'm wrong here) that there can be sometimes 4-5 ponies that qualified under a producer being ridden at the final by their owner or another rider.

For me, it's totally unfair and how can people in showing not wonder about the negative effect this has on getting new people into showing?

We've seen so many top riders start off in showing and it's great for young kids to be able to ride at top shows that will hopefully encourage them to go further but surely this is not the best way to encorage more people to get involved, it just does not reward for the right reasons.
 
The pony is being judged, not the rider, which may be the point you have missed. The ride is only part of what is being judged, the conformation of the pony, it's way of going etc is what should be being judged. Hope that helps.
 
YorksG said:
The pony is being judged, not the rider, which may be the point you have missed. The ride is only part of what is being judged, the conformation of the pony, it's way of going etc is what should be being judged. Hope that helps.
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You contradict yourself! If that is the case then why have a jockey at all? I have not missed that point, is that not why there are in hand classes and ridden classes? Do you not get marked on the "ride" or "show?"
 
Afrikaner said:
You contradict yourself! If that is the case then why have a jockey at all? I have not missed that point, is that not why there are in hand classes and ridden classes? Do you not get marked on the "ride" or "show?"
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It's a pony show not a kids show that's the point.

Why are you so irate, there are plenty of things just for kids if that's what you want to do.
 
Afrikaner said:
You contradict yourself! If that is the case then why have a jockey at all? I have not missed that point, is that not why there are in hand classes and ridden classes? Do you not get marked on the "ride" or "show?"
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No, you get marked on the animal's conformation and being true to type. Yes, you have to turn out correctly (the amount of people who turn up at qualifiers with red numnahs and matching ties is amazing :D ) but on the whole it's the pony.
That said, a lot of these ponies come from the same studs... and are produced by adults in such a way that their way of going is drastically improved. Ie standing in all day tacked up wearing tight side reins. Some flick their toes out naturally, others don't.
This is a way of life and living for these people, most live in huge lorries all summer just going from show to show collecting ribbons and qualifiers. The kids have private tutors and the little LR jockeys just get plopped on at the show and sit looking pretty.
 
I'm an adult who occasionally shows ponies, because you're judging how the pony goes under saddle, not how well a child can ride.

There are plenty of opportunities for children to have their riding and mounts judged, if they wish to.
 
DGeventing said:
I'm an adult who occasionally shows ponies, because you're judging how the pony goes under saddle, not how well a child can ride.

There are plenty of opportunities for children to have their riding and mounts judged, if they wish to.
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But no horse or pony is going to go well regardless, it of course plays a part who is riding it. It's like saying you can stick anyone on Valegro and you will still get a good mark becuase the horse is so well schooled?
And if that is the case, why do producers have to qualify them then and not leave it to the owners if it's not important who rides it?

My point is how is that fair? I have no issue with who rides what, but I cannot see how it is fair for someone to just qualify pony after pony for other people. If your point is valid about the rider making no difference, then it wouldn;t need to be done in the first place.
 
Who cares? It's the pony that's being judged, not the rider. My friend owns a (now semi retired) county standard pony, & when she was tiny daughter did some local level stuff, but I made the decision that whilst at 4 it was fun to sit & look pretty, I much preferred her to enjoy herself at fun shows with normal ponies, that didn't need a tiny teen to ride in as she got older. If anyone into high level showing feels the same then they can do the same. As for ponies being ridden in by older riders, provided they aren't too heavy, again who cares? If you do have a small jockey who is competent people are just as quick to say its 'unfair' that child has had more riding opportunities to get to that level than others. Bs is no different, junior & senior people who aren't much in the way of riders can buy a superstar & sit looking pretty while the horse does the work, such is life. It's 'not fair' that my daughter did cr on her own pony then got a double clear in 2'9 on my 14.2, when other kids her own age without the opportunities she's had were struggling to get round cr with someone on foot. And 'not fair' that I can't afford to run a ja pony for her as some kids have, & that she's had to break & school her pony herself. But such is life, no point getting jealous or bothered about it.
 
There are classes where the rider has to be below a certain age
Then there are 'open' classes which are just that
There are also 'home produced' classes where no producer involvement is allowed

Plenty of opportunities for children to take part

Agree with you it does happen but I dont necessarily agree that it's at detriment to kids taking part. The producer is there to do a job at the end of the day, if they don't qualify ponies they won't get as much business

I don't agree with 'facey' judging where it's the face rather than the pony that is given the prize
 
Here's the thing: that's just life.

If you have money and can afford to do what is needed to win (go to the best, have your pony produced by the best, etc) then you have a headstart on those who can't. That's just the way it goes, and sure it sucks but you have to man up and plough on.

It's the same in every branch of this sport. If you have money, you start further ahead of those who don't. And the sooner you make your peace with that the sooner you start succeeding IMO.
 
Afrikaner said:
You contradict yourself! If that is the case then why have a jockey at all? I have not missed that point, is that not why there are in hand classes and ridden classes? Do you not get marked on the "ride" or "show?"
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I do not think I have contradicted myself at all. The pony is judged on its way of going under saddle. The rider is not being judged per se, after all there are equitation classes for that, which usully are age regulated. It may be "unfair" that a better rider is on board, equally it is "unfair" that someone can afford a better pony, transport to shows etc. Such is life. I do find however that manners tend to come free!
 
Why is it unfair? If you have a top class pony with the temperament and experience to go well in a buzzy environment with a tiny jockey on board - then you may do better than the equally top class pony with a professional adult rider.
Or not!
It is the pony being judged, and these classes should be viewed as a "shop window" for breeders rather than a competition for kids.
 
YorksG said:
I do not think I have contradicted myself at all. The pony is judged on its way of going under saddle. The rider is not being judged per se, after all there are equitation classes for that, which usully are age regulated. It may be "unfair" that a better rider is on board, equally it is "unfair" that someone can afford a better pony, transport to shows etc. Such is life. I do find however that manners tend to come free!
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I'm sorry if you thought my comment rude, that was not the intention I just disagree with your point that was all as it of course makes a difference to a horse or ponies way of going how good the rider is. All ponies will go better with a balanced rider giving the correct aids etc etc.

I agree it's the same in most equestrian disciplines regarding who can afford what, but that does not mean to say we should not encourage as much of a level playing field as possible.

I'm all for producers helping the kids learn to ride and improve a ponies schooling etc but it just, in my opinion, does not seem right that they can qualify as many as they like for other people to ride. That's not sport, and this is a sport!
 
I think you are missing the point. These classes are specifically for ponies. They are not specifically for children. Enter classes specifically for children if you find it such a problem, if you indeed have any children.
 
It's only M&M classes where this is the case (specifically referring to children with adults doing the qualifying) and that is because it's just as likely that an M&M can be an adult ride as a child. SP and SHP classes there are age limits on the jockey.

In horse classes it's equally possible that a producer can qualify it and then the owner rides at the championship.

Equally in pony classes it may be producers jockey (to be within the age limit) that qualifies the pony for the owner.

As already said there are home produced classes as well.

To be honest - that's showing, it's just the way it is.
 
Oh and the pleasure for a homeproduced to beat a producer into a cocked hat and it has a does happen. Home produced just have to better which can only be good for the sport.
Producers get a lot of stick because they win a lot but that is their job if they didnt they would soon be out of business. Who would employ a producer that didnt have good results? no one.
They are good at the job and do things to a high standard if sometimes questionable morals but it is up to the individual owners to make sure their pony is happy and sensitively produced. If those that have questionable ethics are supported for results it is the owners fault as they are condoning it. Ethically bad producers should be put out of business and would be if the owners using them were more concerned for their pony's welfare than results
 
There is never going to be a level playing field with horses or ponies. Even taking money aside, a child from a horsey background, at least at a young age, will have a huge advantage over kids without either money or experience behind them. It's just the way it is. My child is as determined & pony mad as I was at her age, but although I had support from others, the fact is my experience means she has achieved more & is a far better rider than I was at her age, that's just life. Despite the fact my parents had a far bigger budget than I do for her. Absolutely no point in moaning life isn't fair.
 
Afrikaner said:
You contradict yourself! If that is the case then why have a jockey at all? I have not missed that point, is that not why there are in hand classes and ridden classes? Do you not get marked on the "ride" or "show?"
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When ridden classes are judged it is 50% conformation and 50% ride. The "ride" is the ride the horse is GIVING - this is why the horses are ridden by the judge.

Show horses are quite often sold with "Olympia/HOYS/RIHS" qualification.

I have however been told though that it is the qualifying that is the exciting and rewarding bit!
 
I see both sides of the argument. I see they 'it doesn't matter- it's the horse being judged' but the fact they have amateur only classes suggests it does matter and make a difference. I have a wonderful NF who does amazingly well in hand. Not as well under saddle at big shows. Not due to conformation or bad manners but because he's not produced to go the way of the showing world as I mainly ride in dressage so he moves differently. I also don't know some of the tricks the pros know. So yes they do make an impact on their likelihood to qualify.
 
You are right,Shadowboy, it is a different way of going from dressage. The pony should be bright and forward, full of presence, and show itself. Not every animal has this "wow" factor, no matter how well schooled and correct their conformation is.
 
ozpoz said:
It is the pony being judged, and these classes should be viewed as a "shop window" for breeders rather than a competition for kids.
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You see this is why, in my opinion, these ponies should NOT be ridden in classes by producers but by children. I think that LR/FR ponies should display the temperament to deal with novice riders whether its the pony itself, or future offspring.
 
Well yes, you won't see any producers riding the lead reins or first riddens in the ring. Those are classes which by definition require a little jockey. :confused:
 
ozpoz said:
Well yes, you won't see any producers riding the lead reins or first riddens in the ring. Those are classes which by definition require a little jockey. :confused:
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Sorry ozpoz meant to say at shows. To clarify (my opinion) - they should not be allowed to be ridden in by another rider at these competitions. Doubt it will ever happen though.
 
I think it is really ok for the little ones to make sure their pony has the edge off it, if necessary. Many ponies don't need this, but at bigger shows, where there is no turnout for a few days, I'd rather see a pony ridden in by an older jockey than lunged for hours. In other classes it is often the younger ponies who are introduced to shows by an experienced rider or producer, in their 4 yr old year.
Children can learn a lot from watching and competing against professionals - it shouldn't be all about winning for them.
 
It's not that difficult to find a small adult or teen willing to ride your pony at shows. Might not be as good as a professional but if you want it to be fairer than putting a child on thats your best bet, how good the person you find depends on your contacts and how deep your pockets are. Just like every thing else in this world.
 
It's the same in showjumping.

I've seen a lot get a "professional" child to qualify their pony for them (scope, blue chip), then the owners child just competes it at the finals.
 
HOYS M&M results for 2012:

Champion - a young lad who has worked his way up from ponies beating all of the big names.
Reserve - a 15yo girl who yes, bought a ready made pony BUT the mare is tricky to ride and bring out to a big occassion.

Fells & Dales - 1st a lad that again came up though ponies and competes in Intermediates.
2nd - A lass who progressed up through the ranks from Shetland ponies.

Highlands - 1st the Champion.
2nd - a young lad from a family that have always shown to the highest level.

Dart/Ex/Shet - 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th 7th and 9th - all kids or older teenagers who have been in the game and beaten the adults.

A's - 1st-3rd - all kids! The winner being just 10 or 11yo I think?! Riding her own pony that she has done herself.

C's - 3rd - home produced. 4th & 5th homebred and produced by mother and daughter.

D's - Winner and reserve champion the 15yo girl beaing ALL of the big names in Cob showing!

Working Hunter - 12hh and under - pretty much the whole class consitsed of kids which shows that they beat the adults in the qualifying rounds too.

12-13.2hh - A class littered with kids including the 2nd placed pony who is a true all rounder for the family and the lass has been riding since she was 9 or 10.



If the kids are good enough in their showmanship and the ponies are good enough then they will beat the adults, they will beat the producers. I competed as a kid and loved nothing more than beating the adults. It gave me something to aim for and made me a much more confident rider.

If the kids can't hack it then put them in classes against their own ages groups. There are plenty enough of them!

And yes I am an adult who rides ponies.
 
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