Advice/exercises for improving canter transition?

[Pigeon]

So we started doing some counter canter and it's messed up our canter transitions slightly! Pony has started striking with the opposite leg I want (no matter which rein) and he gets very upset if I correct him too abruptly, so the usual bring back to trot immediately and then ask again thing isn't working for us, because he just gets too bunched up and jumps up and down.

Feeling bad because his canter transitions were always pretty easy. I'm trying to time it right, and have enough inside bend - I'm asking by inside leg back, half halt with inside rein, and he tends to go when the hh is released.

If I get my bum out the saddle asking for the transition, he gets it right every time, so it's definitely me blocking him somewhere. I think it may be a timing issue, I always used to ask pretty instinctively, just step forward with inside hip on the sitting part of rising trot and he would go straight into it, I think dissecting it has made it worse! I've never had this problem before so really not sure how to tackle it. Could be confusing aids, could be timing, could be me blocking him, or I'm wondering now if I have too much inside bend and he's falling out through his shoulder.

Any advice or exercises to do would be hugely appreciated. His canter is very balanced on both legs, his counter canter is pretty much as smooth as his true canter, so I find myself having to look down to check, and even if it's right that unbalances me, I'm making both myself and horse paranoid! So yes, easy to understand advice for a simpleton like me would be great

 

[be positive]

The thing that jumps out of your post is that you say his counter canter is smooth so you have to look down, if he was in true counter canter you would know due to the bend so I suspect the confusion has come because he has not been remaining bent round the leading leg enough when you are asking for cc, which has confused him or allowed him to become crooked in canter generally.
If he has been going into canter from a release rather than jumping off the leg aid that will be adding to the issue as you progress to more demanding and accurate work.

There are a couple of things I would work on, first to become absolutely clear that the aid is from the leg not from the release so he is in no doubt as to your intention and which leg to strike off with, the hind leg comes through first so it needs to push with your aid, second if he goes wrong rather than bringing him back to trot continue in counter canter but make sure he is bending around the leading leg rather than cantering on the wrong leg then either continue and change the rein onto true canter or bring him back change bend clearly and ask again, you can mix up both to see what helps most.
Asking for canter from the walk may help clarify things for him, it will be easier for you as you have that moment longer to feel which leg is coming under through the transition and you can make sure he really is bending around the inside leg but remaining straight as he does so, he may well be slightly dropping out through his shoulder or his quarters to avoid pushing through properly, it will be harder to do this in walk.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

you're over complicating it.

you should be asking with your OUTSIDE leg back, or else you are never going to get a flying change. Theres a lot of hoo ha over whether inside or outside is best but NEVER move your inside leg back for canter or its going to be impossible to get a change in the future i promise you.

go back to working on walk and trot to true canter from the outside leg. yes a very slight (1 deg) inside flexion but forget about scooping the seat and moving your hips or making it in to some kind of magic equation.......outside leg back, on and canter,simples

then there will be no confusion over counter canter because he will be 1deg flexed to whichever leg you want and will only have the 1 additional aid of outside leg back to contend with.

 

[_GG_]

you're over complicating it.

you should be asking with your OUTSIDE leg back, or else you are never going to get a flying change. Theres a lot of hoo ha over whether inside or outside is best but NEVER move your inside leg back for canter or its going to be impossible to get a change in the future i promise you.

go back to working on walk and trot to true canter from the outside leg. yes a very slight (1 deg) inside flexion but forget about scooping the seat and moving your hips or making it in to some kind of magic equation.......outside leg back, on and canter,simples

then there will be no confusion over counter canter because he will be 1deg flexed to whichever leg you want and will only have the 1 additional aid of outside leg back to contend with.

This. I would honestly advise scrubbing counter canter for a little while now and re-establishing the aid for canter with the outside leg.

The reason we ask with the outside leg behind the girth is because it is the outside hindleg that we need to engage the strike off from. When training a horse to the canter aids, for me personally, it is to just respond to the outside leg going back and on. Not on and back, but literally, to move the outside leg back and then give the "on" aid. If you are aware of his footfall, you can be very accurate with this. It also really helps to create a clean walk to canter transition and clean changes when you're ready to start them. If you take your inside leg back to ask for the opposite leg to strike off, it can all get confusing further down the line.

For me...the inside leg being the "go" leg has to do with power, not gait. So I don't see going up into canter as needing more power, in fact, I don't want more power for a standard transition as I am looking for a smooth, forward and balanced transition, not an explosion of power. So...by teaching the horse to strike off from an outside leg going back and on, all you are asking for is a change in gait. Also, the higher the level of training you do, the more specific your leg positions will need to become and the more independent they will need to become, so it's good not to overuse them now. Use seat and core to create forward power as well as the leg ad it enables you to use your leg position to move the horse around you without confusion.

Hope that makes sense. When you have consistently smooth standard canter transitions, I would say that a simple introduction to counter canter should be re-introduced so that you can take the time to ensure that you can keep the correct bend whilst in counter canter and not ask for more than he is ready for. By slowing it down now...basically, you'll make it easier for him to pick it up more quickly in the not too distant future.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

"For me...the inside leg being the "go" leg has to do with power, not gait. So I don't see going up into canter as needing more power, in fact, I don't want more power for a standard transition as I am looking for a smooth, forward and balanced transition, not an explosion of power. So...by teaching the horse to strike off from an outside leg going back and on, all you are asking for is a change in gait. Also, the higher the level of training you do, the more specific your leg positions will need to become and the more independent they will need to become, so it's good not to overuse them now. Use seat and core to create forward power as well as the leg ad it enables you to use your leg position to move the horse around you without confusion. "

yes! good post GG

 

[smja]

My horse can also get wound up about canter transitions, and what works for him if something's gone wrong is stopping immediately, stand for about 3 seconds, turn around and walk on a long rein for a side of the school, pick back up and try again exactly the same way.

Also, if you think it's you doing something subconsciously, try asking for the transition whilst looking at the sky (literally, raise your eye line at least 45 degrees from horizontal) - this helps me!

 

[Jenni&Ditty]

If you think he's falling out through his shoulder, put him in outside bend and if he gets the right leg, he is probably falling out.

 

[WindyStacks]

Thank you GG for the excellent explanation. I had a "bad canter day" yesterday resulting in lots of broncs and me growling at him. I think I probably just confused the crap out of him.

I also think I asked a too collected canter of him, would you advise to push on for now? If yes, when should I ask for go, because I don't want to confuse go and gait. I know he gets gait, it's me being a spanner!

 

[Pigeon]

you should be asking with your OUTSIDE leg back, or else you are never going to get a flying change. Theres a lot of hoo ha over whether inside or outside is best but NEVER move your inside leg back for canter or its going to be impossible to get a change in the future i promise you.

Oh my god why have I never been told this before lol!! It's so obvious now you and GG have explained.

Thanks guys. I think I am over complicating things, and also really need to work on my timing and his responsiveness going into canter

 

[_GG_]

Thank you GG for the excellent explanation. I had a "bad canter day" yesterday resulting in lots of broncs and me growling at him. I think I probably just confused the crap out of him.

I also think I asked a too collected canter of him, would you advise to push on for now? If yes, when should I ask for go, because I don't want to confuse go and gait. I know he gets gait, it's me being a spanner!

If you get any confusion creeping in, my advice always is to go back to the basics. The basics being moving the horse forward and creating relaxation. So, using exercises that the horse is confident in and ride them in a forward manner, allowing the horse to feel confident and relaxed again.

I've mentioned before on here that when teaching something new, it is best to be done alongside exercises that the horse can do with ease. Horses want to get it right. When they are learning something new and there is miscommunication and/or confusion, it is very beneficial to the horse to return it to an exercise that it knows and can do well...this boosts their confidence no end and gives them fresh energy and willingness to try the new exercise again.
I use a 10 point scale for this. So, each training session can only reach a maximum of 10 points, made up of easy and difficult moves. Easy being exercises that the horse is extremely well established in, that relax the horse and create confidence and difficult being recently introduced or new exercises that require a greater deal of mental and physical effort from the horse. So, the most difficult being a 5, means you can only afford to introduce or practice one difficult thing per session and only have enough points left to pair it up with exercises that will boost the horses confidence and keep it relaxed and forward.

So, I would push on in the sense that if you start asking for collection in the canter, allow for exercises that will help him remember to keep a forward attitude and keep him relaxed. When I begin asking for collection in canter, I tend to wait until I the horse gives me a tiny bit correctly, then ride the canter forward, in a half seat off the track and semi circle across the school. The reward always being forward and away from the movement as it prevents horses getting backwards in their attitude. This wouldn't be right for every horse, but has worked well for most. It's just a tool to encourage the correct attitude to the work and stop them getting bogged down in the collection.

Hope that makes sense

 

[Pigeon]

Possibly a silly question At what point of the movement of the outside back leg should I be asking for canter? Just as it's leaving the ground, or is halfway through the step okay?

 

[_GG_]

Possibly a silly question At what point of the movement of the outside back leg should I be asking for canter? Just as it's leaving the ground, or is halfway through the step okay?

I ask as the outside hind leaves the ground. This means that leg is in the air when the aid is given so strike off in canter can be on the aid and immediate. Different people will do it different ways and in all honesty, it's only a matter of seconds anyway, so this isn't the most critical part of the transition from a riders point of view in my opinion. I have seen too many riders get caught up in how to get the timing just right whilst everything else falls apart. Some people load weight to the inside seat bone, some the outside. Some esk for extra inside flexion, some don't. There are so many ways to over-complicate it, but it's a natural movement of the horse...all you really have to do is keep them thinking forward and being light off the aids. In your profile pic...where the outside hind is just leaving the ground is when I personally would ask, but one of the most important things in a good canter transition is the balance between giving forward with the hand to allow for the transition to take place smoothly, but not so much that the contact and energy is lost.

That's me...everyone has their own little things within the confines of the basic aids that they do that works for them and their horses.

 

[_GG_]

Oh....and there's no such thing as a silly question

 

[WindyStacks]

Thank you again GG. Makes sense, get a forward-going canter without antics before I "ask" him to regulate it.

He just gave me a bit of a fright, mind you I stayed on and asked something simple after so it wasn't a complete disaster.

 

[_GG_]

Thank you again GG. Makes sense, get a forward-going canter without antics before I "ask" him to regulate it.

He just gave me a bit of a fright, mind you I stayed on and asked something simple after so it wasn't a complete disaster.

Yep.

I always make forward the reward as it keeps them forward in their brains. I notice...and if you try this at home, it would be interesting to know if you notice the same thing...that when I start asking for something a little more demanding and reward a few steps with going off forward in that gait, that the horse produces a quality, rhythmical, loose and relaxed movement, swings through the back more and often audibly relaxes, with a snort or blow. It does two things at once and is an intelligent way to train as you can use what is a relaxing exercise for the horse as something that will directly affect the overall gait, as it will work to improve the gait in general.

So...in your case, asking for steps of a more collected canter, I would wait until I got a few strides and then ride away from the track, semi circle across the school in a loose canter and in a half seat....so by a loose canter, I don't mean losing the contact, I mean allowing the horse to stretch down and have the freedom to move forward and always find that whilst I am using this as a support method of training a new movement/exercise...it has the two fold benefit of also improving the overall gait.

Hope that makes sense

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Possibly a silly question At what point of the movement of the outside back leg should I be asking for canter? Just as it's leaving the ground, or is halfway through the step okay?

in all honesty i wouldnt even try and feel/think about it as by the time you thinkyou know its the right moment, the moment has passed.

if he is light and clear off the aid he will go in the next most appropriate part of the stride which may be instant or 1/2 seconds later depending on where he was when you asked.

dont sweat it, KISS!

 

[Pigeon]

Yay thankyou so much guys! Worked on all of this in our last couple of sessions and got the right lead every time Just had to make sure he cantered as soon as I asked, and I asked at the right time

 

[_GG_]

Yay thankyou so much guys! Worked on all of this in our last couple of sessions and got the right lead every time Just had to make sure he cantered as soon as I asked, and I asked at the right time

Yay!

 

[Pigeon]

So happy No more stressy pony!