Advice needed for vet visit due tomorrow please?

whiteflower

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 December 2009
Messages
660
Its not so much the equipment, its the expertise you get at vet hospital. I'd be furious and upset too!
It's this, my vet had the lameness detector and scanners too ( although only the big specialists are likely to have bone scan and MRI and it's MRI we ended needing)
It's the expertise with the specialist vets dealing with their speciality day in day out. I look at it like my local vets (no matter what equipment they have) being like gp's and the referral vet bring like a hospital specialist.
It very much sounds like your vet has either run out of ideas or not interested so at this point I would consider being referred for a second, specialist opinion if further investigation and an answer is the way you want to go
 

ForbiddenHorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2013
Messages
1,720
I really feel for you OP and hope you get some answers. When my cob had issues and was uninsured, the vet (and me) had no idea what was wrong so wasn’t easy to find like yours so can imagine what it’s like. To add my gelding would canter in the field but didn’t like to canter in the school specially circles and was generally grumpy, as well as tripping. Apparently neck isn’t looked at and can often be the reason for looking strange behind and not being 100%. mind it may be something completely different for your mare but thought I’d mention it. Is she dramatically different on regumate? A friend uses it on her mare and the difference is incredible so now has her injected by something similar regularly. It took 2 months of going over things keeping the bill cheap as possible but vet ended up xraying his entire body for the cost of 1 x-ray (£250) and the bill in the end, including those xrays, hock injections, 4 visits and 2 visits he done for blood tests (didn’t charge me the visit as done it when he was driving past) as well as visiting vet hospital and having his neck injected was just over £1000 which I thought was amazing.

Is your vet a specialist in lameness? The vet I used was and I made sure I asked for a vet that specialises in this kinda thing. Hope it gets sorted :-(
 

Pinkvboots

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 August 2010
Messages
10,947
Location
Hertfordshire
This. Sadly I have learnt through experience that where there is not a clear cause of a problem it's often better and cheaper to get referred to one of the large equine hospitals for a full work up. I've had a similar experience with my ex vets stabbing in the dark costing me money and not achieving anything or following any logical train of thought. I told them I wanted a referral as I believed the issue was more serious than they were saying. They told me I was over reacting to which I told them either they would refer me or I would be getting another vet to do so. Low and behold the diagnosis at newmarket was as I had predicted and sadly not the 'nothing' they had predicted. Now anything above basic lameness checks I will then asked to be referred even for the ones not insured.

I know a few people who have sent horses to Newmarket for loss of performance work ups and both times they found what was wrong, my gelding was treated there when he did his suspensory and so was my mare when she had all her lameness problems, I couldn't fault them at all and was really happy with what they did both times.
 

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
1,738
I really feel for you OP and hope you get some answers. When my cob had issues and was uninsured, the vet (and me) had no idea what was wrong so wasn’t easy to find like yours so can imagine what it’s like. To add my gelding would canter in the field but didn’t like to canter in the school specially circles and was generally grumpy, as well as tripping. Apparently neck isn’t looked at and can often be the reason for looking strange behind and not being 100%. mind it may be something completely different for your mare but thought I’d mention it. Is she dramatically different on regumate? A friend uses it on her mare and the difference is incredible so now has her injected by something similar regularly. It took 2 months of going over things keeping the bill cheap as possible but vet ended up xraying his entire body for the cost of 1 x-ray (£250) and the bill in the end, including those xrays, hock injections, 4 visits and 2 visits he done for blood tests (didn’t charge me the visit as done it when he was driving past) as well as visiting vet hospital and having his neck injected was just over £1000 which I thought was amazing.

Is your vet a specialist in lameness? The vet I used was and I made sure I asked for a vet that specialises in this kinda thing. Hope it gets sorted :-(
Thank you for this.
He did come back to me and said that basically as she presented no signs when heading home on a hack that he decided it was just behavioural. :( But it contradicts everything he said in his original notes.
Her neck wasn't looked at and to be honest, I would never have thought it was a problem, she has no issues moving it or holding it properly in work, collected and long and low.
I wish my vet had charged only £250 for the full x ray! It was £200 for each section so that was three sections on her legs, bottom, middle and top and then two sections for her spine. I don't understand that if there are other machines or equipment that are better to tell what is going on more accurately why they didn't use that in the first place. :(
 

ForbiddenHorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2013
Messages
1,720
Thank you for this.
He did come back to me and said that basically as she presented no signs when heading home on a hack that he decided it was just behavioural. :( But it contradicts everything he said in his original notes.
Her neck wasn't looked at and to be honest, I would never have thought it was a problem, she has no issues moving it or holding it properly in work, collected and long and low.
I wish my vet had charged only £250 for the full x ray! It was £200 for each section so that was three sections on her legs, bottom, middle and top and then two sections for her spine. I don't understand that if there are other machines or equipment that are better to tell what is going on more accurately why they didn't use that in the first place. :(
:( The thing is my gelding looked sound hacking, specially coming home as he was simply coming home, put him in a arena he looked very off indeed. You can't judge a horse coming home from a hack. If he walks in a straight line, ask someone to pull his tail to the side, he should brace and not full into the pull? Can he turn tight circles and cross his back legs? If so it probably isn't neurological. The 2nd vet took my words for there being something wrong even though my horse trotted up sound even lunged on concrete, i'd owned him 5 years so know him well. The same as you.. you know your horse better than the vet. Do you think its behavioral? How long have you owned the horse? You know that horse, you need to tell your vet is IS NOT behavioral like I did mine. Be quite straight up.

Where are you based?
I'd get yourself a different vet, a understanding one is what you need rather than your current vet doing any more work. I've never been charged per x-ray, maybe I've been lucky. Before my gelding was diagnosed November last year I used another vet from a different practice a friend recommended, he watched him walk and trot and lunged, I could see he looked funny behind, the vet looked at me and said there isn't anything wrong with him, hes being a prat, ride him and stop being stupid. I told him i'd owned this horse 5 years and know he isn't taking the piss hes a well schooled chap and can't even walk in a outline, can't you see he looks off in trot?.. he said no, hes sound and if he had a issue he'd be lame and he looks fine (I knew he didn't) he charged me £100 for 20 minutes and I was no where further. I then asked around and used a vet (hes the director of the company) that had very good reviews for these kind of issues. Mind the vets I use are a big company with a huge horsey hospital and they take on referrals so they know their stuff.

Could it be worth trying a short bute trial, she may of had ulcers but it would be good to see if you notice any immediate difference on say 2 a day or if being super careful, 1 sachet a hour before riding.

I'm currently using bute for my other horse, hes on 2 sachets a day and the difference is quite noticeable so hes having more tests next week, hes not lame either but not 100% to ride so the same vet is coming out to flexion him, lunge, trot up and possible nerve block or x-ray keeping the bill down in case the insurance decide not to pay/we don't find anything.
 

Sussexbythesea

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 July 2009
Messages
5,383
I know a few people who have sent horses to Newmarket for loss of performance work ups and both times they found what was wrong, my gelding was treated there when he did his suspensory and so was my mare when she had all her lameness problems, I couldn't fault them at all and was really happy with what they did both times.
Agree. I by-passed my local vets (Young vet was really condescending) when I suspected an SI injury due to loss of performance and got referred directly to the Animal Health Trust at Newmarket. Got a pretty definitive diagnosis from Sue Dyson and rehab programme. It was the second time I’d used them due to a previous horse going up there for a second opinion on a wobblers diagnosis.

I now don’t see the point at using non expert vets to diagnose complex and difficult to diagnose issues. It’s a waste of time and money.
 

Trules

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 April 2012
Messages
204
I had a mare that sounds very similar. Spoilt as a youngster. No respect for personal space at all. Would walk through you for food. Nappy when she wanted to be but talented. If she was pointing in the direction she wanted to go in would jump anything in her path with ease. But if she didnt approve of the direction of travel, ears back, nappy attitude, bucking in response to leg. Very good at face pulling. She is a happy hacker now, never did find anything concrete wrong with her but do think she just didnt respect humans at all and wanted to prove her dominance all the time.
 

SEL

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 February 2016
Messages
5,867
Location
Buckinghamshire
I think a lot of horses stride out better when they are heading home - doesn't mean they aren't in pain, just means they know home means ride is finished and therefore pain is over for another day. Completely get the frustration with your vet because I've been backwards and forwards for 2 years with my old practice. I'm another where they didn't want to scan the suspensories and actually stood there on the yard having an argument about it - ITS MY MONEY! Sure enough, suspensory problem.

Time and time again when they have said about nerve blocking her hocks I asked how they planned to do that in practice - the mare kicks with intent and her aim is spot on. My new practice tried one flexion test and decided immediately that nerve blocking was dangerous so we'd need a plan B.

The only thing I would say is that steroid injections can take a few weeks to bed down, so it might be worth holding off any further investigations and seeing whether she gets a bit better.
 

ester

Not slacking-multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
52,740
Location
Cambridge
Nic at rockley did an interesting blog about horses being more comfortable on the way home a while back, unfortunately I can't think of any searchable terms that will get it to come back.

At this point I think I wouldn't rush into anything, you have eliminated a lot of things that you might otherwise worry about, we know the horse has a rather tricky history, and you need to be practical about how much vet bill you can afford if it cannot go through the insurance.
 

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
1,738
If he walks in a straight line, ask someone to pull his tail to the side, he should brace and not full into the pull?
Can he turn tight circles and cross his back legs?
Do you think its behavioral?
How long have you owned the horse?
Where are you based?
She doesn't fall into the tail pull.
She can turn in tight circles on both sides and cross her back legs while doing so.
I think she is generally quite a grumpy person but I don't think this effects the movement, however, the movement stops being short when heading home on a hack. I don't school her as she hates it unless you start pinging her over jumps.
I've had her 2 years and she has never been any different even when I did discover the ulcers and had her treated, nothing changed.
Based in New Forest
 

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
1,738
Nic at rockley did an interesting blog about horses being more comfortable on the way home a while back, unfortunately I can't think of any searchable terms that will get it to come back.

At this point I think I wouldn't rush into anything, you have eliminated a lot of things that you might otherwise worry about, we know the horse has a rather tricky history, and you need to be practical about how much vet bill you can afford if it cannot go through the insurance.
I have asked them to submit the claim form now but if it's not accepted, I will just pay it.
I'll see if the Regumate does anything over the next couple of weeks as well as the steroids. Then I'll consider maybe getting a second opinion. I have got another vet looking through her history and is going to let me know what they think. I'm also going to consider Tom Beech. Or perhaps even a Bute trial or Danilon if it works the same. I know it's a really awkward case and it could be anything, I just wish they could talk.
 

Pearlsasinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 February 2009
Messages
29,322
Location
W. Yorks
I wouldn't be as concerned about the mare's behaviour so much as the vet's behaviour tbh. You have ruled out several things so at least your 2nd opinion has some things that have already been ruled out. I have no experience of Tom Beech but going on recommendations on here, I would probably ask for his opinion next.
 

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
1,738
I wouldn't be as concerned about the mare's behaviour so much as the vet's behaviour tbh. You have ruled out several things so at least your 2nd opinion has some things that have already been ruled out. I have no experience of Tom Beech but going on recommendations on here, I would probably ask for his opinion next.
I am extremely concerned about the vet's behaviour now. Things have turned sour and he's basically saying my claim isn't going to be accepted now because she has "bucked in the past". I didn't even put bucking on the claim form and I fear he's going to manipulate what has been said so it doesn't go through. :(
 

ForbiddenHorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2013
Messages
1,720
If you're that worried i'd ask to talk to the directors of the vets you're using, explain your concerns and ask whats been written on the claims form as you're worried because hes mentioned bucking which you have never mentioned.

My vet is very careful and always wants a claim to be paid, I would be surprised if he does the opposite!

See how she gets on for a few weeks now and it gives your mind time to rest a bit. If no better i'd use a bute trial to see it it makes any difference, worth a try? Have you thought about sending her away? Just thinking if she would behave any differently elsewhere with someone she doesn't know handling/riding etc.
 

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
1,738
If you're that worried i'd ask to talk to the directors of the vets you're using, explain your concerns and ask whats been written on the claims form as you're worried because hes mentioned bucking which you have never mentioned.

My vet is very careful and always wants a claim to be paid, I would be surprised if he does the opposite!

See how she gets on for a few weeks now and it gives your mind time to rest a bit. If no better i'd use a bute trial to see it it makes any difference, worth a try? Have you thought about sending her away? Just thinking if she would behave any differently elsewhere with someone she doesn't know handling/riding etc.

The vet is the director. :( I have spoken to the admin department at the practice who is going to look at the notes and chase for the vet to complete the form. I've spoken to the insurance company too so they have my take on the situation.

I haven't thought about sending her away but when she was ridden in the school at the practice with a different rider, she was exactly the same.
 

ForbiddenHorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2013
Messages
1,720
The vet is the director. :( I have spoken to the admin department at the practice who is going to look at the notes and chase for the vet to complete the form. I've spoken to the insurance company too so they have my take on the situation.

I haven't thought about sending her away but when she was ridden in the school at the practice with a different rider, she was exactly the same.
Oh, apologies did not realize that. I hope it gets sorted and they pay out. Is she any different away from home? Ridden in a different school, or in a open field? Ridden on a surface definitely can cause any small issue to show up more.
 

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
1,738
Oh, apologies did not realize that. I hope it gets sorted and they pay out. Is she any different away from home? Ridden in a different school, or in a open field? Ridden on a surface definitely can cause any small issue to show up more.
We only hack really and she's happy doing that, I have no issues with her hacking at all other than the tail swishing which I only noticed after seeing my friend's headcam footage, the swishing doesn't make any difference in her behaviour, as I said, I hadn't even noticed it. However, she doesn't swish when being lunged with or without saddle. She does put her ears back when I ask her to trot or canter out hacking as we ride away from home but that's all. Schooling is much worse, not just on circles but on the straight too. We have a grass school at home and the practice had some grey soft looking stuff which she was the same on both. She walked and trotted up sound on concrete too.
 

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
10,604
Location
Northern Ireland
The vet is the director. :( I have spoken to the admin department at the practice who is going to look at the notes and chase for the vet to complete the form. I've spoken to the insurance company too so they have my take on the situation.

I haven't thought about sending her away but when she was ridden in the school at the practice with a different rider, she was exactly the same.
Tell them that if the insurance company doesn't pay up, they'll be waiting a long time while you save up the money to pay the bill. That should change his attitude.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
12,405
Location
Northampton
We only hack really and she's happy doing that, I have no issues with her hacking at all other than the tail swishing which I only noticed after seeing my friend's headcam footage, the swishing doesn't make any difference in her behaviour, as I said, I hadn't even noticed it. However, she doesn't swish when being lunged with or without saddle. She does put her ears back when I ask her to trot or canter out hacking as we ride away from home but that's all. Schooling is much worse, not just on circles but on the straight too. We have a grass school at home and the practice had some grey soft looking stuff which she was the same on both. She walked and trotted up sound on concrete too.
I thought he said was she was better on the grass school?
 
Top