Advice needed on leading a naughty youngster.

[jodi14391]

Hello.

I have a 2 year old rescue who is currently standing at 13.2.
We've had him 6 weeks now and his character is starting to shine through!
Because he's been starved previously he is very food orientated. He doesn't get treats because he chases you and nips you wanting more. You can say hello to him when he's eating that's fine, no nastiness then. However if you try to collect him from the field with all the grass he'll try and kick out. From the other field he's fine! He was rescued about 3 months ago and we don't think he was ever handled much before that. He is a very loving chap, loves attention and to be groomed but he's definitely a cheeky boy who likes to test you!
We've mastered food time it seems. He gets his own paddock at night away from the other two so he can have all the hay he needs to himself. When it's food time the other two get their buckets and then you put his headcollar on and walk him through to the other paddock. He knows this and tries to shove his head into the headcollar and be pushy trying to make you hurry up. I have stopped putting it on when he's being pushy and just stood there waiting for him to come back calmly. (he goes and stares at his bucket over the fence and then comes back a few times). He's getting the hang of this now and walks to you calmly for his headcollar and through the fence to his food nicely. We've made a point of saying hello to him and patting him when he's eating and when he's just munching in the field.
When he first came he was in that paddock all the time until the others accepted him. He would run circles around you nipping you and sometimes kicking out when you came out the barn(paddock is around the barn.) with the food. We used a stick holding it out to keep him back. We don't hit him with it obviously just use it as a barrier so he couldn't reach us.

Anyhow there's enough background!

So we've started walking him out just around the block in the village recently. We started off with the halter so it pulls on his pole when he gets silly. However now we're using a headcollar with a chain behind it so when he pulls it gets tighter on his chin.
When out and about he tries to give you little nips on your hand which we think is when he's worried. We think it's his comfort thing. However he's now started jumping up/rearing in the air throwing his front legs around when he's having a tantrum. Which is obviously not good out on the roads! He talk to him all the way round and say 'good boy' when he doesn't react to things. He's ok with cars and most things. But sometimes he just seems to throw himself about for now reason. I understand it's a lot to take in for a youngster but how do I stop him leaping around? He landed on my mum the other day and has caught us both with his hooves when flipping out. We've tried the telling off approach and the ignoring it approach but it doesn't seem to help.
He's also started really pulling and getting in front of me. When you tell him off for anything he gets stroppy and will throw his head around because he clearly doesn't like being told what do to.

We're hoping to bit him this summer which might help.
I am after any suggestions please in what we can do to stop him leaping around and pulling. Is it too much too soon for him? Surely it's best to master it all now before he gets any bigger and stronger!

Our other two know mum and I are boss but I think he's trying to push his luck with us.

I am considering getting a lesson once a month or so on how to react when this happens. But I wanted to ask around first.
No nasty comments please. I'm just after some advice.
Thanks.

 

[SpringArising]

Get rid of the chain that pinches/gets tighter under his chin to start with. I really don't like those things and I don't think that they're good for slowing horses down either.

You're better off getting something with a chain that goes over the nose if you want more control.

Go right back to basics and don't take him on the road again until he knows that when you walk, he walks, and when you stop, he stops (and right away!).

You should be able to get him to back up, turn, walk forwards and stop sensibly and quickly without any arguments. Then take him somewhere more exciting and practice. Only take him on the road until you have full control.

I personally don't think I'd take anything out on the road without a bit in its mouth, because if it darts off the chances of stopping it with just a headcollar on are very slim.

 

[jodi14391]

Thank you. We have practiced in the field. He stops and walks and really listens to your voice so you only have to say 'stand' and he does it. He's calm in the field but I think he has too much to think about on the road so loses himself. But how do we conquer that without taking him out to work through it?
Would one of the Monty Roberts headcollar be a good idea for pressure on his nose rather than chin?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

No one uses a chain under the chin, I don't know where you got that idea. Anyway he needs to learn properly, any good instructor will help you, you must nip it in the bud.
Don't stand and face him, keep walking, use a long lead rope, carry a light schooling whip, but first you need to learn how , when and where to use it.
There are things you can learn from forums, but basic handling a youngster needs someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You need to get him fully trained in-hand in a safe enclosed place before you venture out on the road again. He's just not ready. When you go out again, I would take a calm horse companion.

RE chains under the chin. I have found them to be very effective with horses that try to drag you, but you have to respect them as they are a harsh bit of kit. I have trained both of my arabs to wear arab show halters with chains at the back and they really need the lightest of touches and a well trained horse.

 

[jodi14391]

Thanks. We have taken him out a few times with one of our others and he still leaps every now and then. We don't want to do it too often as we don't want him becoming a horse that won't go on his own. Or shall we use them for comfort and then fade them out once he's calmer?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No one uses a chain under the chin

It's absolutely normal for show halters.

Jodi - If he was mine, I'd actually take things a lot slower. I would give him some time just out in the field with the other horses with daily handling only. Once he's settled more and grown up a bit, I would then start to do a bit of in hand work with him. Once he's 100% at home I would then take him out with another horse. Then when he's 100% with another horse I'd try him on his own.

 

[jodi14391]

Thank you. I have thought maybe it's too much too soon. But everyone has a different approach and i didn't know if if we should carry on or start again. I think we'll calm things down for a bit and start again slowly. I've said I'm not going to rush things and his life has dramatically changed in 3 months so he's probably still trying to adjust to his new life anyway. Slow and steady wins the race!

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

It's absolutely normal for show halters.

Jodi - If he was mine, I'd actually take things a lot slower. I would give him some time just out in the field with the other horses with daily handling only. Once he's settled more and grown up a bit, I would then start to do a bit of in hand work with him. Once he's 100% at home I would then take him out with another horse. Then when he's 100% with another horse I'd try him on his own.

OK I have never used a chain under the chin on any of the 1000+horses I have handled, and have never seen professional using one to handle a recalcitrant horse..

It absolutely NOT is not the way to train a young animal.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

OK I have never used a chain under the chin on any of the 1000+horses I have handled, including stallions, and have never seen professional using one to handle a recalcitrant horse..

It absolutely NOT is not the way to train a young animal.

My young filly had a few attempts at rearing and lunging at me, first time she caught me unready, next time, she got an immediate rap on the shoulder with the lead rope. However best thing is to get a young animal to learn the basics, as long as things are going well then you know you are doing the right thing, but when things are not going right you need to sort it out. I think you need to get someone to show you what to do, it is not advisable to let anyone who is not a confident handler to lead a horse which is not quiet.

A lot of people use a pressure release halter rather than a normal head collar, but it is not a head collar which can be used for tying up horse, it is a training head collar.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

OK I have never used a chain under the chin on any of the 1000+horses I have handled, and have never seen professional using one to handle a recalcitrant horse..

It absolutely NOT is not the way to train a young animal.

OK, you haven't used one, but your way isn't the only way.

It absolutely IS the way that young arabian halter horses are professionally trained the World over. Some people will use a leather backstrap rather than a chain, others loop the chain so it can't pull tight, but many have exactly the same setup as an adult horse as shown in the photo of the grey.

I'm not saying that the OP should go out and get an arabian show halter, but your sweeping statements RE chains under the chin are wrong. People do use chains under the chin and they do use them with young horses. If used correctly with a properly trained horse it's fine. I do not approve of shanking with this set up in any way.

 

[Princess16]

OP have you thought about clicker training? Get Alexandra Kurland's book it's very good and deals with all the things you mention including mugging for treats/food, leading etc.

Like others have said I would do more ground work with him before taking him out on the road. Just spend time leading him round the field/paddock stop start trot stop etc. I did this with mine and he is a star when being led. Circling you, pulling is not acceptable at any cost and he needs to know that.

As others have said its a lot for him to be getting used to in such a short space of time bless him.

Good luck and let us know how you get on .

 

[Nicnac]

Not sure why you want to take a 2 year old out on the road? He's a baby, rescue or not, and should be handled as you are correctly doing and taught manners. Nothing more.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

OK, you haven't used one, but your way isn't the only way.

It absolutely IS the way that young arabian halter horses are professionally trained the World over. Some people will use a leather backstrap rather than a chain, others loop the chain so it can't pull tight, but many have exactly the same setup as an adult horse as shown in the photo of the grey.

I'm not saying that the OP should go out and get an arabian show halter, but your sweeping statements RE chains under the chin are wrong. People do use chains under the chin and they do use them with young horses. If used correctly with a properly trained horse it's fine. I do not approve of shanking with this set up in any way.

If used correctly with a properly trained horse it is fine, it probably won't be used severely on a properly trained horse. I don't disagree with that. A chiffney is sometimes used in particular situations, and chains over the noses on stallions, but they are trained for the use of them by an experienced handler. Colt foals are trained just like filly foals, pressure release, obedience. I really find it very strange that anyone would train with a chain just because it is an arab.

As for my way being the only way, I did not say it was my way, it is the way of all the professionals I have worked with, they expected me to handle horses in a certain way, and I never saw anyone using a halter such as you describe. We used what gear we had available, so if a horse was getting out of control in a head collar we used a bridle. If a horse was a known rearer we might put him in a chiffney, but these were not things to use on a young pony or by an inexperienced handler.

What I am saying to OP is that it is not the way for her to train a young horse.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Halter arabians are trained in show halters with chains under the chin because that's what they need to wear in the ring. Just as you need to train with and use the correct equipment for any other showing class. I don't see how this is 'odd'? If you've had nothing to do with training in-hand arabian show horses, then it isn't really that surprising that you haven't ever needed to use, or even seen a show halter.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Halter arabians are trained in show halters with chains under the chin because that's what they need to wear in the ring. Just as you need to train with and use the correct equipment for any other showing class. I don't see how this is 'odd'? If you've had nothing to do with training in-hand arabian show horses, then it isn't really that surprising that you haven't ever needed to use, or even seen a show halter.

Faracat please get off my case, this post is not about training arabs for showing in a particular arab show way. The OP is not a professional handler, she is struggling with this pony, and I have advised her to get someone with experience to get it sorted, if you have a problem with that, sorry, but I stick with my advice to OP.

 

[SpringArising]

Not sure why you want to take a 2 year old out on the road? He's a baby, rescue or not, and should be handled as you are correctly doing and taught manners. Nothing more.

I don't see a problem with it unless the youngster hasn't been taught to lead properly.

It's good for getting them used to traffic, strange noises and people, and will make backing and hacking ten times easier once it's ready to be ridden.

 

[webble]

I don't think it's what you said just the tone it was said in. That said things can be lost in translation so I could be completely wrong

Faracat please get off my case, this post is not about training arabs for showing in a particular arab show way. The OP is not a professional handler, she is struggling with this pony, and I have advised her to get someone with experience to get it sorted, if you have a problem with that, sorry, but I stick with my advice to OP.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

B2 - I was just responding to your posts RE chains under the chin, I accept that it was a bit of a tangent. I did not intend to upset you. I'll repeat again - I never said that it was what the OP should do with her horse.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

OK, friends then

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Deffo. Sorry if I upset you.

 

[BethH]

My horse as a youngster was a nightmare - I bought the Kelly Marks "Perfect Manners" Book and a dually headcollar and both were brilliant. From experience I really don't like chiffneys/chains or the be nice headcollars or string headcollars. my horse massively objected to a thin piece of rope on his poll, it made him fight more and it taught him to rear!! The dually is all about a sense of timing but the rope over the nose has a far more effective release so training is clearer, because the headcollar pieces are wide it sits better and stays in place but make sure you read the instructions properly there is a right and wrong way to use it.

Oh and yes and I agree, get him sorted in the school first and then take an older experienced road sound horse with you on the road when you feel he is ready if possible. The book I mentioned will give you some good exercises to get him to accept you moving his body around, which should help him accept you as his leader.

Best of luck

 

[Kacey88]

My horse as a youngster was a nightmare - I bought the Kelly Marks "Perfect Manners" Book and a dually headcollar and both were brilliant. From experience I really don't like chiffneys/chains or the be nice headcollars or string headcollars. my horse massively objected to a thin piece of rope on his poll, it made him fight more and it taught him to rear!! The dually is all about a sense of timing but the rope over the nose has a far more effective release so training is clearer, because the headcollar pieces are wide it sits better and stays in place but make sure you read the instructions properly there is a right and wrong way to use it.

Oh and yes and I agree, get him sorted in the school first and then take an older experienced road sound horse with you on the road when you feel he is ready if possible. The book I mentioned will give you some good exercises to get him to accept you moving his body around, which should help him accept you as his leader.

Best of luck

I second everything BerthH has said. I found this book excellent, and I have a near 14hh 10 month old! If I were you I would give him some downtime though. Let him build up confidence with everything else first especially if he has had a rough start. You have loads of time to introduce him to traffic etc. Maybe get yourself a few lessons in the meantime, let him really relax into his new routine and try again at a later stage. I reckon trying to teach youngsters to lead, obey, in a strange place with traffic etc is a very big ask. A few months down the line he may be a lot more ready for the challenge. Best of luck!