Advice - New horse has shivers

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Before anyone shouts 'Troll' I am posting this incognito as I wish to keep my cards close to my chest ATM. I am really hoping for some good old HHO advice or comments on my current predicament. I know we have a few legal bods on here as well as loads on common sense.

After a 6 month hunt I purchased my dream horse nearly 2 weeks ago. Just turned 5, green, but laid back ISH. I tried it in several situations and had a 5 star vetting (passed). Farrier came out a couple of days ago and asked if the vet had picked up that he was a 'shiverer' - cue cold clammy hand round my heart. He said symptoms seemed mild and only on one hind leg but definitely there. He does pick one hind up very high initially (did it when I viewed him) and now I am aware of it there is a very subtle tremble but then he lowers it again nicely. He can back up and turn his hindquarters, but does so a little clumsily; I had put it down to his age.

I have never had anything to do with shivers before hence not spotting the warning signal of leg lifting, so have spent hours searching the internet for info. I understand that in early stages it can be intermittent and difficult to detect and can be brought on by anxiety, excitement, travelling etc. It is a degenerative condition. A lot of horses still compete and live normal lives, some have difficulty being shod behind, and others may not even be able to walk around the field without falling over. Degeneration could take 2 years or 10 years.

He came from a reputable dealer (I hope), not bargain basement but not expensive (got a little change from £3K). Advertised as suitable as for an all-rounder/ fun family horse, schooling well, can pop a course and will happily hack. He was vetted as a general all round riding horse. Receipt from dealer states 'tried and vetted'.

In all other ways, considering his age he has been a star and I am very fond of him already.

So - what do I do now? I have 4 scenarios.

1 Approach dealer using sales of goods act - not fit for purpose, cons are that it could be expensive and traumatic. Apparently not knowing he had shivers would not be a defence; however the fact that the vet didn’t pick it up and that at the moment he is still fit for purpose would go in their favour.

2 Approach vet/consider legal action against vet for missing it on vetting again could be costly, stressful and symptoms may not have shown up during the vetting. They could have been triggered by the 2 hr journey home (possibly)

3 Suck it up, put it down to bad luck and enjoy the horse whilst I can - be it 1 or 10 years. BUT don’t say anything to vet or insurance until it becomes a problem, then see if I could claim LOU - problem is perhaps it isn’t shivers and could be something else that could be remedied, or made worse by carrying on as normal. Plus I would be being dishonest/fraudulent, even though insurance companies are total rooks at the best of times.

4 As 3 but get vet involved and let insurance company know. Could all come right in the end however it is likely that insurance would exclude just about everything. Plus if he became unridable it would be hard to save up for another riding horse whilst keeping this one in a fit and proper manner. I would only PTS if he was suffering and not able to enjoy a comfortable life in the field.

Bl***y B****cks - what should I do……..
 
I like him a lot, hence buying him after a 6 month search. He is far from perfect but has fitted in so well and has 'something' about him.
 
Moat new policies for insurance say accident only for first 14 days so I wouldn't do anything with them just yet..... and you would have to prove it wasn't a problem before insurance started... hmm I'm not sure which option I would take.
 
shadowboy said:
Moat new policies for insurance say accident only for first 14 days so I wouldn't do anything with them just yet..... and you would have to prove it wasn't a problem before insurance started... hmm I'm not sure which option I would take.
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Exactly I keep swinging between all 4 options
 
What a nightmare! Have you posted this on the vets section? It would be interesting to hear a vet's opinion.. Are you absolutely sure it is shivers? Could it be stringhalt or something? I think both the dealer and the vet could wriggle out of it - the vet is commenting on what he sees on the day, and the dealer could say it passed a vetting...

For what its worth, although I would still avoid a shiverer, I had a friend who rode a horse with shivers when we were teenagers, and the horse did all pc events without problems - the horse was 12 if I remember correctly.
 
I would call the vet out and ask them. The farrier could be wrong, and the vet is in the best place to advise you about treatment and his future, not the internet ;)
 
probably not thr right thing to do but.3. as said he may not have shown symptoms during vetting and as it stands, it is really your vets opinion as its not official, give it a while, see how he goes and use vets/insurance if neccassary, atleast that way the horse could have good treatment if under insurance than your own pocket? soun awful dont i!
 
Not sure which way I would go but being able to get LOU at any stage is highly unlikely as at some time you will have to get your vet involved, possibly it will be something unrelated, the insurance company will then exclude it in your renewal, so unless he deteriorated very rapidly not much chance of a payout.

I think if it was not your own vet that vetted him I may be tempted to go down the route of claiming against the vet, a client of mine did this, it was not too expensive, a few experts needed to fill in forms plus letters, the vets insurance paid out without going any further as it was as clear case of him missing vital checks at the vetting.
She kept the horse but got purchase price back, or most of it.
 
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be positive said:
Not sure which way I would go but being able to get LOU at any stage is highly unlikely as at some time you will have to get your vet involved, possibly it will be something unrelated, the insurance company will then exclude it in your renewal, so unless he deteriorated very rapidly not much chance of a payout.

I think if it was not your own vet that vetted him I may be tempted to go down the route of claiming against the vet, a client of mine did this, it was not too expensive, a few experts needed to fill in forms plus letters, the vets insurance paid out without going any further as it was as clear case of him missing vital checks at the vetting.
She kept the horse but got purchase price back, or most of it.
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Hmm that sounds positive - thanks be positive
 
be positive said:
Not sure which way I would go but being able to get LOU at any stage is highly unlikely as at some time you will have to get your vet involved, possibly it will be something unrelated, the insurance company will then exclude it in your renewal, so unless he deteriorated very rapidly not much chance of a payout.

I think if it was not your own vet that vetted him I may be tempted to go down the route of claiming against the vet, a client of mine did this, it was not too expensive, a few experts needed to fill in forms plus letters, the vets insurance paid out without going any further as it was as clear case of him missing vital checks at the vetting.
She kept the horse but got purchase price back, or most of it.
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i think thas a bit harsh on the vet, especially as the horse may not have shown any symptoms at all at the time and afterall, the vetting is for the point in time that the horse is vetted.
 
I'd get the vet out.We spent a lot of money on a dressage horse for my daughter. He is a superstar in all ways except farrier said "its got shivers" cue me and daughter ( and husband who paid for most of it! ) going in to panic mode. Got vet out - NO it doesn't have shivers, its just funny with its back legs! Not the end of the world after all :-)
 
PrettyPiaffe said:
I'd get the vet out.We spent a lot of money on a dressage horse for my daughter. He is a superstar in all ways except farrier said "its got shivers" cue me and daughter ( and husband who paid for most of it! ) going in to panic mode. Got vet out - NO it doesn't have shivers, its just funny with its back legs! Not the end of the world after all :-)
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Gosh I wish that would be the case for my boy. He wasn't a lot of money, but far too much to be a field ornament. I think next time I might get a goldfish!
 
I would get vet out as my horse does exactly that and she defo does not have shivers (she has a lot of other things, but that's not one of them!)
 
I would get vet, or wait a few weeks, see how he goes then get vet.
A 5 star vetting, yes it could be missed. But then the farrier sees horse once and diagnoses shivers.
I know farriers know their stiff but a vets diagnoses is needed to be sure.
Hopeful its nothing
 
Before jumping the gun get a different vet to check the horse over and confirm diagnosis. It is possible that, as someone else said, shivers was not present at time of vetting especially if only a mild case. It could be a temporary problem and not shivers. However, even if diagnosed with shivers don't panic.

i ride an 18hh+ mare that I adore to bits. At approx 5yrs of age she suffered an accident that damaged gluteal muscles and caused some neurological damage that has presented as shivers in later years. however this was very mild. In her younger years she has has hunted with bloodhounds, competed in RC Hunter trials, loved galloping, jumping etc and is 17 yrs old this year (I think) and produced a lovely (if somewhat strong minded) daughter. As she has got older the shivering has become more pronounced when picking up hind legs and stepping back (one in particular) and she is a bit stiff when first ridden out. John Cleese's ministry of funny walks has nothing on Ethel but she is still loving life and although mainly a happy hacker she still loves a really good gallop, bounces everywhere and if i point her at the odd log (with my eyes shut, 'cos I is a wimp! ) will do whatever she can to jump it no matter how much i mess it up. Just don't ask her to canter round corners as that can become a bit bumpy as she can't always sort her hind legs out on the bends, we can do amazing tempi changes behind! She is on a Danilone a day (not a lot for an 18hh + horse ) and we up this to two the evening before and the morning of shoeing day to make her more comfortable and make it a bit easier for the farriers.

Dressage has never been her thing but that was more due to mental attitude; what's the point in trotting when you can go full speed up the gallops! In her older years she has needed a bit more careful management but it isn't a death sentence as soon as they are diagnosed. if she starts to become distressed or stops enjoying life then obviously we will rethink her situation but as long as she bounces down the drive like Zebedee and our wonderful farriers, Roger Clarke and David, are able and happy to continue shoeing her then I will carry on riding her.

However, I would urge you to contact your insurance company and discuss this fully with them, withholding information does not pay off. Yes it may be that they then exclude any neurological condition in future but you would still have cover for other conditions.

Apoloiges for the long post - I'm bored as not able to ride at the moment due to an arm operation which means i would not be able to hold Ethel!
 
I'd say get your own vet out to check over. If you need to wait 14 days for insurance to kick in then monitor for that period, if's it's just something that's niggling from the long journey you should see some improvement in that time and if still worried get the vet.
 
It could be stringhalt not shivers? My horse has stringhalt and is managed by being on naf d-tox, loads better on it. Doesn't stop him doing anything. Could u have a chat with your vet off the record to see wat they think?
 
I would do nothing and say nothing, I'm not a legal expert but would assume you have no come back with dealer seems it past vetting, maybe he would exchange him as goodwill so perhaps worth asking. As for vet it's only valid the day it's done , maybe he missed it maybe horse did not show symptoms , who knows. I would keep stum until it becomes a issue , insure the horse for LOU and take each day as it comes. The horse might be fine then again it might not..?? But it could bust a tendon in the field or do its self damage another way. If the horse fine now I'd just get on with it and see how it goes. I would defo not involve vets if currently the horse still fine.
 
I was also going to say sounds like stringhalt, maybe have a hypethrtical chat with the vet before putting anything down on paper. As for the insurance they only go on a vets diagnosis not the farriers. But I would have a chat with the dealer and see what they say. Good luck I really hope it's not shivers.
 
Just wanted to agree with blackwijet, shivering is not the end of the world. My boy was diagnosed at 6 and is still happy and healthy with it at 27, albeit a little stiff now, but what horse wouldnt be? The main problems could be shoeing and studding up.
Before doing anything i think you do need a definate diagnosis, but not sure the best way to go about this.
Stringhalt it quite different from shivering (have had a horse with that too :rollseyes:) stringhalt is where they walk funny and snap their feet back on the ground. Shivering is where they involunterily hold their legs up quite high and they shake.
 
I havent read through all the posts but this is your first horse and he sounds lovely :D i have known vets /farriers get it wrong vet didnt have a clue why my horse was very very lame wanted full xrays of legs etc , i panicked but got the back man out, who diagnosed hed pulled his back he lifted his leg, popped it in and instant recovery! i think chill out , and if your horse is ok ,dont worry ,your horse is insured , ive never met the perfect horse health wise or perfect ride, my own horse sounds similar to yours deveoped sarcoids after a year of ownership and every one was urgh, blah , blah, but i love him and ive had many horses in my life and i know id never find another like him ,horses can have quirks etc, does it bother you ?i know a blacksmith diagnosed a horse with laminitis because she was lame but she didnt have laminitis .Try not to get worried, and enjoy, your horse is insured,and no-one noticed anything til blacksmith said something ?maybe it was the way he was on that day or standing or something , good luck keep us up to date :D
 
Ok, I think you're options are quite limited.

I doubt that you can sue the dealer as the horse is not unrideable and therefore is suitable for the purpose you bought it for.

Sueing the vet would also be difficult, you need to prove that he was negligent and again, the horse is rideable, therefore it is suitable for the purpose you asked the vet to vet it for.

Same again for the insurance, the horse is rideable, therefore they would not pay out LOU.
You probably know more about shivering by now than I do but I don't believe that there is any cure / treatment for it so it seems pointless involving the insurance in any way - other than of course you should inform them of this condition really... ;)

So, I think you need to first of all establish if your farrier is right by having another vet check the horse.
If the horse is in fact a shiverer, you need to decide whether you want to keep it or try and return it.

If you want to return it, I would approach the dealer about a refund or exchange for another horse.
Or possibly even a partial refund if you want to keep the horse - clearly its value is limited as a shiverer.

If you want to keep the horse, the good news is that it may not deteriorate at all.
In fact, every single shiverer i have ever come across was in work and some were competing very successfully.
It's a neurological condition and there are things you can do to slow further deterioration , eg with diet.

If I saw a horse I really liked that shivers, I would buy it as long as the shivering is reflected in the price of course. :)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
Do you know if anyone else had this horse vetted before you and do you know its previous history. If the dealer had any knowledge of this condition [if it is shivers] then you have a come back.
I am so hoping the horse is ok and you will both be happy together
 
I would be inclined to do nothing you have a five star vetting to prove to the insurance it was not a preexhisting condition, if you want to insure for loss of use with that recent vets certificate you can.
Even if it is shivers whilst it is so minor seinfeld a vet will make no difference if it is string halt the same, and as soon as you involve a vet even unofficially they should in theory tell the insurers so why take the risk.
If heaven forbid it gets worse in the then you call the vet out and That way your insurance will cover you.
 
You need to get a proper diagnosis first off. And then legal advice. I'm not sure if either vet or seller can be found liable, as none of these symptoms may have been present either prior or during vetting.

Let us know how you get on, its a sad and difficult situation.
 
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