advice on going barefoot?

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donquixote

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Hello, I'm new here and looking for some advice to help me decide what to do. My gorgeous 17hh 12 year old Hanoverian boy has a list of injuries/ailments so long that my vet thinks it must be a record :rolleyes: the latest of which is possible collateral ligament issues in both front feet combined with extensive sidebone. He is clearly not happy on his feet (almost looking like he has mild wobbler symptoms - he doesn't, neck has been x-rayed) and 2/5 lame on both front feet on a small circle on hard ground. on a straight line he looks sound but short. he has always been clutzty on his feet and has problems going down hill, plus he has fallen over in the field and fractured his tuber coxae four years ago and, more recently, fallen in his stable, thankfully just bruising this time. He had a serious bout of laminitis last year in all four feet (yes, he was in 'show condition' but never obese) and has damaged the extensor tendons repeatedly in both hind legs - again we don't really know how except that the first time was by standing on his own foot and getting stuck in a shoe... the list goes on but these are the most relevant I think. Anyway, he was nerve blocked and scanned last week after x rays showed nothing particularly untoward apart from the sidebone which has been around for some time and the general conclusion was collateral ligament damage possibly caused by the sidebone. Miraculously his pedal bones have not rotated after the laminitis, and my farrier even comments on how well his feet have done after the laminitis - he now has much more heel than before due to the increased growth that it created. My question, and I know this is not an easy one to answer, is whether I should try going barefoot? he is also pidgeon toed which I guess contributed to the sidebone in the first place. I have owned him all his life and we compete in dressage. I have never tried him without shoes but he does have good soles I am told. My vet is going to get back to me when he has decided what course of action to take, but I just wanted to have some options up my sleeve if all is as negative as I think it might be. Normally my boy has fantastic movement and expression, but now he is nappy, short and doesn't want to go forward, particularly refusing to canter left. I'm glad I have found out what the problem is, but am keen to get him comfortable asap. If barefoot is an option would I be facing weeks of him being in more pain? How much and what kind of re-hab would I be expecting? He has a nice flat paddock and limited grass in summer and most of his work is in the school apart from light hacking. Feed-wise he has only top spec balancer, alpha lite and magnesium. any advice greatly received, apologies for the long post, many thanks in advance.
 
can't advise but thought you'd like to know I found you post really difficult to read as it is all in one block.
would be easier if you had paragraphs with good spaces in between.
 
Firstly welcome,
sorry to hear you have so many problems back in May my horse was not right bad on turns napping and uncomfortable after being shod called vet out and after a lameness work up he was diagnosed with probably having navicular, he was 3/5 lame on tight circles.

After much researching, i decided barefoot would be his best option, i didn,t use my farrier as he said he had weak feet and would never handle it, got a DAEP who is fantastic always on hand to advise me.

When the front shoes came off he wasn, t good, so for 3 months he wore wraps which protect and encourage growth, he was fine after this so then started hand walking out in boots and pads, then went on to ride him 20 mins a day.

He is progressing well his feet are now healthy and strong and he is only about 1/10 lame on the turn which isn,t bad considering the vet suggested pts.

Theres a lot of knowledgable bare foot people on here so i am sure you will get plenty of good advice. Good luck
 
At work we keep all our horses barefoot and normally when they first have there shoes off they are ok for a few days but as they get the feeling back to there feet, this is where they can go really footy ( many people get to this and decide to opt out). what we do is just walk them over stones, concrete etc to harden up there feet.

The process can take a few months up to a year, it really all depends on the horse. But the result it worth it in the end. :)
 
I have recently taken the shoes off my horse.

About 2 months before I adjusted his diet so there is nothing with molasses in it. No molassed chaff, or nuts or mixes. I also added some magnesium oxide to his feed. Assume that there will be some fungal infection, even if it isn't obvious, and when the shoes are removed treat it with a gentle thrush treatment (an agressive mixture can kill off good tissue and lead to a cycle of re-infection). I have used solution of borax (2 tablespoons in a gallon of water and spray daily) but that is slow and tedious although it works. There are many different sorts available now.

It is really worth getting either a pro barefoot farrier or a trimmer from one of the trimming organisations. The latter will be happy to tell you about their training and that they are insured, and the numbers of horses they have on their books and what the horses are doing work wise. Just taking off the shoes and saying the horse is barefoot probably won't work, especially with a big horse, the foot needs to be trimmed and balanced to work correctly. If the horse has been in shoes for years then it is going to take some time for his feet to grow differently and strengthen up, it won't happen overnight, think in terms of weeks and months, although you will probably notice a difference in how the hooves are growing from the top in a short time.

Your trimmer can also advise you about suitable hoof boots which will enable you to work your horse at an earlier stage.

I woulldn't make him go over stones or rough ground in the early weeks as you risk getting bruises and then that can lead to an abscess. You don't want the horse in discomfort. The diet adjustments and fungal infection treatment will help him grow a strong well connected hoof wall which mean that those annoying little stones don't get trapped in the white line.

I had mine barefoot for about 18 months and then had shoes put on for the showing season, but I am sure that if he hadn't he would be lame by now. His feet never looked better and he was much more sure-footed, balanced and a chronic tripping problem disappeared. After a couple more years in shoes for the summer I have decided that I want to keep him barefoot from now on, if possible.

There is masses and masses of information on the website, you will get information overload. Get hold of a copy of the book "Feet First" which gives lots of information. Look on the Rockley Farm website for daily updates of re-hab horses.
 
Hi my boy has been barefoot for about 4 months now and is doing really well . I took my advice on diet from Rockley Farm and bought the book feet first ( its Amaizing reading ).

I take photos every month and can already see a change for the better in horn quality and foot shape .

He is sound on soft surfaces now but still a little footy on anything more challenging.I also hack him out in a pair of easyboot gloves , these boots are great and he is sound in all gaits when wearing them .
Its a long road but im my opinion well worth it.

Hope this helps x
 
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I have just had my vet come back to me (at last) with his diagnosis...

He now, having checked the x rays again, believes there to be some chnges in his navicular bone (only on left front, but he is lame on both??) plus he thinks the collateral ligament damage could also be going on deeper down than the bit he can confirm with the scanner.He suggested MRI, but my insurance won't cover it and unless I win the lottery soon... I'll find a way if it becomes essential though.
I spoke both to the vet and farrier about going barefoot. My farrier is certainly not against it, in fact quite pro it, but he worries that my horses poor foot shape won't stand up to the re-hab process (his feet turn in, one of them quite dramatically when unshod) and he is worried the stress would prove too much on the side of the foot that is lower(?) His words were - you can only take away foot, which he can't afford to lose. Or something along those lines.

The vet is very happy with his foot balance as is but wants to try pads and aluminium shoes first, he's is not against trying barefoot if this fails:( He also suggested Tildren. Really not sure what to do at the moment, but I think I may go with the pads for a while at least until the ground drys up a bit - I imagine going barefoot on softer ground is good, but how on earth do you keep wraps on if he needs them? Thanks again everyone.
 
Not to be cynical, but of course your vet wants to try his method first. If there is NS, your best bet will be barefoot with an experienced EP, the sooner the better. Try it for a year and if it doesn't work, then try what your vet recommends.
 
I'd get on the spot advice from someone who has been there, worn the t-shirt and shot the video.

Uneven wear and pigeon toes etc etc etc are red herrings

I haven't posted about it on the blog yet, because still on going, but am working on a horse that humans had tried to straighten through corrective shoeing. The damage to the knees and upwards is quite shocking.

But this particular horse, now with his leg back where it needs to be, rather than matching a human aesthetic is now sounder than he has ever been.
 
OK, I've decided to give barefoot a go and I have contacted an equine podiatrist and am hoping to get a visit to see what he thinks asap. Meanwhile, i have to try and get my vet on board - If only to see if i can claim for podiatrist/boots/wraps etc instead of remedial shoes and pads/Tildren treatment, blah blah..on the insurance claim that is now running. Or am I clutching at straws here? My insurance will pay out a certain amount for 'alternative treatments' so maybe, if vet recommends this route...

Does anyone know of any official veterinary type papers have been published on navicular/barefoot? I'm just thinking of showing something to vet to placate him ;) My problem is that he wants me to try the conventional route first.

Last Q: assuming I don't get any insurance help, is the cost of trimming more than your average shoeing bill? Will I be facing a huge outlay initially? I'm prepared to starve to get my boy right, but just need to know what I'm facing really! Many thanks again
 
Start by printing out this thread! Rockly Farm is doing a research project in conjunction with Liverpool University. You could also get hold of Feet First for him to read, because it gives the story of the feelings and worries that Nic and Sarhra went through - as well as the rest of us!

As for expense, I found it about the same as a farrier, as you are paying for time and expertise and travel and trimmers often have further to travel. However, as time goes on you will probably need less attention from the trimmer so the gaps between trims will become much longer. The difference with having a farrier is that if you have a setback, or you are having a wobble, a farrier will put the shoes back on straight away. A trimmer can't shoe, so will help you through and give you moral suport (or should do anyway) and look for a solution to any worries and wobbles.

Mine has pigeon toes, and it was amazing to see how his feet altered when he was barefoot. At first he became much more pigeon toed, then they gradually changed back to look almost straight, over the course of several months. The hoof capusal can grow around the bones, and the horse will grow a hoof to support the structures above, even if it doesn't look like a perfect hoof to us.

Mine was wonderfully shod at one time, looked as though he had perfect feet/leg (and he did well showing) but he went on to develop a lump above his knee, which eventually I decided might be caused by the "corrective" shoeing. It disappeared a few weeks after the shoes came off.
 
donquixote said:
OK, I've decided to give barefoot a go and I have contacted an equine podiatrist and am hoping to get a visit to see what he thinks asap. Meanwhile, i have to try and get my vet on board - If only to see if i can claim for podiatrist/boots/wraps etc instead of remedial shoes and pads/Tildren treatment, blah blah..on the insurance claim that is now running. Or am I clutching at straws here? My insurance will pay out a certain amount for 'alternative treatments' so maybe, if vet recommends this route...

Does anyone know of any official veterinary type papers have been published on navicular/barefoot? I'm just thinking of showing something to vet to placate him ;) My problem is that he wants me to try the conventional route first.

Last Q: assuming I don't get any insurance help, is the cost of trimming more than your average shoeing bill? Will I be facing a huge outlay initially? I'm prepared to starve to get my boy right, but just need to know what I'm facing really! Many thanks again
Click to expand...

I wouldn't hold out much hope of support from your vet or insurance company.

Barefoot is still very much not recognised as a treatment - much to our frustration!

In cases of navicular (and other problems) the official treatment is drugs to improve blood flow and remedial farriery to support the heel. These treatments cost lots of money and have no guarrantee of success. The best is often light work with a constant worry of the horse going lame again.

Barefoot entails addressing the diet (to a healthy, sugar and crap free one), taking the shoes off to allow increased blood flow and allow the back of the foot to develop and support itself. Thirdly to provide stimulation to encourage the foot to grow and develop - either with exercise or inhand walking over varied terrain up to the horse's comfort level.

Done right - the navicular disappears and the horse can do any activities!

It is so simple and best of all - CHEAP! A trim from a good trimmer is £35 every 6-8 weeks. That's INSTEAD of money spent on shoes and drugs.

I will say you need to use a good trimmer for a horse with pathology like this. It is rare to find a farrier that understands how a bare hoof works (that is in my own experience) and often they trim the sole and the horse will become sore and the answer will be - shoes.

At the end of the day, if you take the shoes off and go barefoot, it won't do the horse any harm even if it doesn't help (it will help though;))
 
An update... just spoken with my vet who is still urging caution... he reckoned he had seen the result of a bad barefoot trimmer and scared the life out of me :(
He read up on Rockly Farm while we on the phone...

Anyway, he agreed that I should give barefoot a go but wants me to use a remedial farrier who apparently does a lot of barefoot work. I know the farrier in question, he is VERY highly thought of and VERY hard to come by. Vet suggests we see what he has to say and whether he thinks (because of dodgy foot confirmation - he really turns in and dishes badly on one) barefoot is going to work. I'm so confused, but I imagine this could be a good starting point. I'm still hoping to get the EP to come look too to get another opinion, but at least this seems a way to go.

Diet-wise, if Top Spec balancer isn't deemed to be great for barefoot, any suggestions of another balancer that is? I don't feed any cereals or sugar at all anyway, just Alpha lite and speedy beet. I really rate Top Spec but will change if it isn't right.
Thanks again
 
It sounds like you have the diet right.

Your horse will tell you if there is a problem.

If he is growing good, strong, wall then his diet is fine.

It's up to you whether you use said farrier or EP - there's good and bad in both professions.

Hopefully you have found a farrier who can rehab the horse successfully.

Good luck.
 
Have just seen this.........Bailey my boy is a 17hh Hanovarian and it a Rockley Farm rehab. He had collateral ligament injury to his left fore. He was diagnosed with navicular at first but vets got it wrong as i went and got an MRI done.

Rockley Farm all the way, barefoot all the way. Bailey had Tildren (didn't work) he had IRAP (didn't work) he had PLR aluminum shoes (didn't work) he had all sort of remidal farriery (didn't work) he had the joint medicated x4 (didn't work)!!!!!!!!!! are you getting the picture. His last chance before being PTS was Rockley Farm he had been lame for 2 years! box rest for 9 months, it was a total disaster. Vet laughed at the notion of barefoot, my oestopath laughed at the notion of barefoot, my dressage coach laughed at the notion of barefoot, get the picture. They are not laughing now, they are gobsmacked! my dressage coach was lost for words when i told her that he had been out hunting 3 times in the first 6 weeks back with me!
He is moving the best he has ever moved, he floats. He does 2 hours daily of roads, tracks and whatever comes along, friends had to have theirs shod after on 3 weeks hacking with me instead of their usual 7 weeks. He is not 100% rock crunching as yet, that will come, but he is sound, sounder than he has ever been in his life with shoes.

Rockley was brilliant and Nic is like no other you will ever meet. She is totally amazing. She is our angel, and i will be forever be in her debt, she gave me back my horse of a lifetime and we shall always fly the Rockley Farm flag loud and proud.
Give her a call, or email. He is Bailey W on her website go take a look, everyone had given up on him except me.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
My horse is another ex Rockley rehab (Frankie) and ditto all of the above ;) Vet, physio, farrier all agreed that no they were not anti barefoot but there was no way a horse with such poor hoof confirmation could ever go barefoot and I would be mad to consider it.

Just wanted to add a couple of things.

About who helps you rehab him, it sounds like your horse has quite alot of issues and I would be looking for someone who has alot of experience in successfully rehabbing these sort of injuries barefoot. If you decide to get both the trimmer and the farrier out before you decide, I would ask both if they can give references and examples of similar cases.

Secondly in Frankie's case getting the diet right was crucial. I think it was more about our grazing being very unbalanced but getting an analysis and mineral recipe made a big difference to his hoof quality. So if you get to the point where he doesn't seem to be doing as well as you hoped consider that.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
Firstly, many, many thanks to everyone who has given their advice, it has helped enormously. I have some news - I have spoken with Nic Barker of Rockley Farm and she has been incredibly helpful. She has even very kindly watched a fuzzy video of my horse walking, clearly showing both his toe first landing and his pidgeon toes - which she reckons won't be too much of a problem :)
She is due to speak to my vet in the next couple of days, and my farrier too (who has also been brilliant, listening to my woes on the phone, and who, it turns out, attended a KC Pierre course on barefoot), so hopefully he and Nic can work out a plan of action. I'm still waiting to see if my vet insists we see the remedial farrier, but I hope, between us all, to be able to talk him into referring my horse to Rockley farm. All I need to do then is work out a way to pay for it, but work it out I will...

Failing his referral, I shall try to re-hab him at home. Any and all advice would be gratefully received! I think have good enough surfaces (I should say my friend has as it is his yard, not mine :)) - gravel, tarmac, fields to ride in and semi stoney tracks. Plus a school with a good surface. How hard can it be???
Thanks again, and I would love to hear more about horses that have been to Rockley, and their owners experiences. I am really nervous about the possibility of sending him away but do believe it will be the best thing I could do for him.
 
My horse is at Rockley and the moment and I ditto all what the others have said. My story is similar to Lainey's. My horse had been lame for almost two years before going to Rockley and had had every possible treatment for navicular out there; box rest, steriod injections x3, navilox, tildren, remedial farriery, bute, all with NO effect at all. A couple of months before he went to Rockley, he was so bad my vet spoke to me about putting him to sleep and when he came out to assess Soli before he went to Rockley he was 5/10ths lame (and that was on a good day with him on 2 bute a day!!!)
He has been at Rockley Farm for just over 3 months now and is due to come home 2 weeks today :D:D and my god he is a reformed horse, yes he still has a long way to go but he is in work (something which i thought i would never see again) and more importantly, he is happy and painfree now :D Nic does an amazing job there and I would recommend it to anyone who wants to give their horse a chance. My vet and farrier were extremley sceptical to the point where i wasnt sure if my vet would refer him but in the end, he did and it was SO worth it. As Lainey said, I to am forever in debt to Nic and I cant wait to have him back home!!
 
This is so inspiring to read, my horse was diagnosed with navicular back in May, was 3/5 ths bilaterally lame when lunged in a small circle on tarmac.
The vet suggested ll the things you had done or pts, I decided to go the barefoot route straight away, I have an excellent DAEP and my horse is improving and i am back on him just walking atm but we are hopeful he will be right by spring
 
donquixote said:
Firstly, many, many thanks to everyone who has given their advice, it has helped enormously. I have some news - I have spoken with Nic Barker of Rockley Farm and she has been incredibly helpful. She has even very kindly watched a fuzzy video of my horse walking, clearly showing both his toe first landing and his pidgeon toes - which she reckons won't be too much of a problem :)
She is due to speak to my vet in the next couple of days, and my farrier too (who has also been brilliant, listening to my woes on the phone, and who, it turns out, attended a KC Pierre course on barefoot), so hopefully he and Nic can work out a plan of action. I'm still waiting to see if my vet insists we see the remedial farrier, but I hope, between us all, to be able to talk him into referring my horse to Rockley farm. All I need to do then is work out a way to pay for it, but work it out I will...

Failing his referral, I shall try to re-hab him at home. Any and all advice would be gratefully received! I think have good enough surfaces (I should say my friend has as it is his yard, not mine :)) - gravel, tarmac, fields to ride in and semi stoney tracks. Plus a school with a good surface. How hard can it be???
Thanks again, and I would love to hear more about horses that have been to Rockley, and their owners experiences. I am really nervous about the possibility of sending him away but do believe it will be the best thing I could do for him.
Click to expand...

Hi there - just come across this post. My horse has had similar problems to yours, but we are unable to tell what is exactly causing the lameness as the insurance will not pay for MRI, but there are changes to the navicular bone and the bursa was inflamed, which looks quite likely that there is damage to DDFT.

I have decided to send her to Rockley and have arranged for her to go in less than 2 weeks time. I was going to try and rehab her myself, but don't have the time or any experience so thought the best option would be for her to go to Rockley.
I don't want to build my hopes up too much, but I am so excited after speaking to many people who's horses have been there and are now sound. Will miss her loads and it is a long drive from Durham, so I won't be able to visit very often :( But I think it's for the best :D
 
GO ROCKLEY GO.............YAYYYYYYYY the best thing i have read all day........lol.

donquixote send your boy to Rockley beg, borrow, steal the money........i did.lol. as your boy needs specialist rehab. I couldn't have done what Nic did in the time she did. You will not regret it, when i left Bailey there he had never in 7 years been out of my sight and leaving him there very lame was awful, but as i left i did not shed a tear as i knew (after meeting Nic) that this was going to be special and it was. She treats all the rehabs like she treats her own and they are loved and cared for. I was lucky though as i only live an hour away so could visit on a regular basis. Our last day there was out hunting how amazing is that for a horse that could barely walk in shoes.
Go for it and keep us in the loop.x
 
donquixote said:
Firstly, many, many thanks to everyone who has given their advice, it has helped enormously. I have some news - I have spoken with Nic Barker of Rockley Farm and she has been incredibly helpful. She has even very kindly watched a fuzzy video of my horse walking, clearly showing both his toe first landing and his pidgeon toes - which she reckons won't be too much of a problem :)
She is due to speak to my vet in the next couple of days, and my farrier too (who has also been brilliant, listening to my woes on the phone, and who, it turns out, attended a KC Pierre course on barefoot), so hopefully he and Nic can work out a plan of action. I'm still waiting to see if my vet insists we see the remedial farrier, but I hope, between us all, to be able to talk him into referring my horse to Rockley farm. All I need to do then is work out a way to pay for it, but work it out I will...

Failing his referral, I shall try to re-hab him at home. Any and all advice would be gratefully received! I think have good enough surfaces (I should say my friend has as it is his yard, not mine :)) - gravel, tarmac, fields to ride in and semi stoney tracks. Plus a school with a good surface. How hard can it be???
Thanks again, and I would love to hear more about horses that have been to Rockley, and their owners experiences. I am really nervous about the possibility of sending him away but do believe it will be the best thing I could do for him.
Click to expand...

Doin a little happy dance in my living room.

Look forward to following your horse's progress on teh blog when he gets there.

All the money you will save on drug treatments and remedial farriery - you can buy us 'Barefoot Taliban' a pint with for suggesting Rockley;)
 
intouch said:
Not to be cynical, but of course your vet wants to try his method first. If there is NS, your best bet will be barefoot with an experienced EP, the sooner the better. Try it for a year and if it doesn't work, then try what your vet recommends.
Click to expand...

firstly only posting for all readers (not U in perticular)

As a Farrier that got swept a side after F'n'M and hunting ban ect .. I have had to suffer the un trained barefoot trimmer.what they are actually doing is called "A 4-point trim" one young Trowbrigde lady was so rushed that she was making the same misstakes that an underpayied 2nd year apprenice would make, and as a starting point to horse and hound the frog is NOT on the horse but mainly underneath, or distal to the proximal-meidial-interphalangical joint ... if memory serves me well ..

if you wish to have your equine well managed employ a Farrier, becouse I needed the work about 4 years ago.. and now a Gypsy pinched my floortools, a loan anyone please hrh... Dip W C F
 
wessex and wiery said:
firstly only posting for all readers (not U in perticular)

As a Farrier that got swept a side after F'n'M and hunting ban ect .. I have had to suffer the un trained barefoot trimmer.what they are actually doing is called "A 4-point trim" one young Trowbrigde lady was so rushed that she was making the same misstakes that an underpayied 2nd year apprenice would make, and as a starting point to horse and hound the frog is NOT on the horse but mainly underneath, or distal to the proximal-meidial-interphalangical joint ... if memory serves me well ..

if you wish to have your equine well managed employ a Farrier, becouse I needed the work about 4 years ago.. and now a Gypsy pinched my floortools, a loan anyone please hrh... Dip W C F
Click to expand...

That trimmer may have been. My old horse suffered a farrier doing exactly the same thing. Disaster.

Personally, I don't know of any trimmers apart from the farrier I mentioned who uses a four point trim.

Doesn't mean that some don't but neither does seeing one trimmer use that method mean they all do.

I have seen a heck of a lot of horses lamed by poor trimming. All bar 1 or 2% have been farrier trimmed. But I still comment positively when I see a well shod horse or farrier trimmed horse. Despite two decades plus of poor experiences I have nothing against farriers per se and do my best not to generalise. I do know of two or three good ones. Unfortunately one of these is about retirement age and is two counties away and the others have gone over entirely to barefoot trimming and are in other countries.
 
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firstly only posting for all readers (not U in perticular)

As a Farrier that got swept a side after F'n'M and hunting ban ect .. I have had to suffer the un trained barefoot trimmer.what they are actually doing is called "A 4-point trim" one young Trowbrigde lady was so rushed that she was making the same misstakes that an underpayied 2nd year apprenice would make, and as a starting point to horse and hound the frog is NOT on the horse but mainly underneath, or distal to the proximal-meidial-interphalangical joint ... if memory serves me well ..

if you wish to have your equine well managed employ a Farrier, becouse I needed the work about 4 years ago.. and now a Gypsy pinched my floortools, a loan anyone please hrh... Dip W C F
Click to expand...

Few trimmers do a 4 point trim as a rule , so please dont generalise.

And as for the mistake making underpayied 2nd year apprenice - well that would be the one that does most of the trims then eh? That was our experience!

Don't blame the trimmers for the demise of farriers mate.
 
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