Advice please, friend's mare too handy with her back feet!

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cheeryplatypus

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Hi
Just after some advice for my friend...it's a bit long, sorry!

She had a mare, 14 yo. We hack out together most weekends and I had the mare on holiday for a week so she could have a break away in the summer.

Anyway, this mare is quite bossy with people. She is big (16hh) and knows her strength well! She refuses to be caught unless there is a big bucket of carrots presented. I didn't believe this last year and ended up getting double barrelled in the field as I didnt have the required bucket when trying to bring her in. When she stayed with us she refused to listen when leading and simply pushed me over into the mud and no amount of skin twisting and pressing her chest would move her off my ankle (fortunately the ground was soft).

Anyway fast forward to this morning,
I arrive for our hack and am told that the mare was threatening with her back end while in the stable so much that the owner had great problems getting her out to tack up. I keep it's in mind and stay a reasonably good distance behind during our hack. Unfortunately we pass a field of ponies who like mine so he has a little show off at them (really small!), next thing he is kicked in the chest by the mare . Well I'm quite upset about it all, and he seems ok but a bit bruised and a little hair missing. I won't take him out with her again until she is more settled, however I'm quite stuck at what to recommend to the owner.
Part of me thinks one well timed smack when she turns her back end on people may help but the owner isn't keen. I don't think the situation can be allowed to continue as its a bit dangerous.

Any suggestions?
 
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What does she do when she threatens to kick? I have to agree, if it was my horse it would be getting a well timed smack, it is too dangerous habit to allow (speaking from experience after getting kicked in the head!!)
 
It sounds like it's been allowed to escalate and that involving someone more experienced in that type of behaviour would be a good idea

In the meantime if you hack out I'd go in front or lag well behind
 
How do you give a horse a well timed smack when it's turned its backend on you and threatened to kick? Sadly, unlike biting, kicking is very difficult to cure by a well timed elbow or (upwards) slap with the back of your hand. I have a zero tolerance for kickers. I refuse to have them as liveries, and would never buy one myself. I had to deal with one when I was a young groom. He was 17 hands and would try to kick you in his stable. I used to go in his stable with a broom and move his quarters away from me with it then tie him up. But it really is a difficult habit to actually cure.
 
My mare can kick others if the get into her space.....she gets a good wack if she tries it though and its only every now and again when she forgets herself now.
Used to have problems catching her and no way way I going to get into the habit if bucket of food to get in. So I spent four hours one day in the feild with her chasing her off every time she turned away from me whe I went to get her in. After the four hours (take drink and snack for you as its hard work) she finally just turned and walked to me.....the next day she took half hour and since then all I have to do is bring back my shoulders and lift myself up and she use huffs and comes right to me.

She needs alot of leading work, sounds like she has NO respect for anyone.
Where abouts are you? Someone on here might be able to recommend someone to help her.
 
Must add that mare only kicked other horses not people, the one time she kicked me when picking out her back feet I k we something was wrong and it was pain related due to arthritis in hocks.
 
Hmm. I would actually be a bit wary of clouting that mare over the backside as she sounds the type that might turn round and really have you. The not getting off your foot after bowling you over doesn't inspire me with confidence that she would react well tbh.

My gelding has kicked me. He did get the broom up his ass but I know he isn't the type to take it badly and it was a one off event. He's usually soft as muck.

Is the mare healthy and happy? No hormonal problems? No pain when ridden?
 
I recommend you get a decent professional trainer//behaviourist out to teach you/owner how to train her out of this dangerous behaviour. I'm sorry but I think this is something that needs to be taught on site and all people handling her need to have the same strategy for a) keeping safe and b) make sure the training is consistent. She has clearly learned that this behaviour works to get carrots and keep people away from her.
 
I would get the usual checks to check that the mare isn't in pain. From the ground work with the mare I would take a zero tolerance approach. The mare needs to learn to to respect her handlers and learn about personal space.

How is the mare with other horses in the field. Does she respect their space. Is your friend scared of her? I wouldn't be taking any sh**e from the mare what so ever. If she lifts her legs to me in the stable she willl expect a broom up her arse. And only when she is nice to me she will get rewarded. As far as catching in the field is concerned I would go in with an empty bucket. And if she doesn't want to be caught then you chase her round the field (as previosly suggested). The reason for the empty bucket is if she does attempt to lash out you throw it at her arse (this has worked with me with a foal which was kicking out at me)

However given the severity of the problem I am wondering if your friend would benefit from some professional help. I have had horses at home for years and wouldn't want to try to deal with an issue like this on my own. What worries me is that your friend could end up severly injured if she attemots to manage this horse on her own. I would also want to know if in the professionals opinion if it can be cured or wether the mare should PTS given her dangerous behavior.

Horses are supposed to be fun and it is not fun taking your life into your hands every time you handle a horse.

I really hope things work out for your friend :)

JANA
 
Thanks everyone.
I'll recommend she gets some proper help. Unfortunately the mare has effectively trained her human to tip toe round her and feed her in order to behave!
The flying hooves and double barrelling are dangerous. When she lashed out in the field she had loads of space to move on but she chose to kick out instead of moving away from me.
I agree that she's smart and may not take a telling well at this stage.
I'll be insisting that we stay in front on future hacks, and may suggest the back shoes off until things are more settled :(
 
We had a mare at college like this - she was a nightmare and, if you got her to muck out on a morning it was not much fun! She would go for you with her teeth and backend though but I think a lot of her issues were worsened by the fact she was handled my not very experience people a fair bit of the time and she got the upper hand. she was actually one of the nicest horses to ride oddly enough.

I mucked her out on occasion - if possible it was best to get someone to hold her outside of the stable whilst you did it but, if there was noone there then you just had to get on with it. You had to ASK her to mive over whilst she was tied up, if you got too demanding or hard she would lash out (but you had to watch for the teeth as well!). once she went to bite me and, almost an automatic reaction, I slapped her! Well, she threw a fit and kicked out so hard she smacked the door which fortunately for her was not bolted, it flew back and slammed against the wall she hit it so hard - I would not have liked to have been on the receiving end of that! Fortunately, she hadn't broken free as otherwise I think she'd have gone for me!

I truly don't know how you deal with or cure horses who are like this. I definitely think your friend needs to seek professional help or the issue will just get worse if this mare feels what she's doing works to her benefit. I hate to suggest it but it may even be worth getting some animal communicator? I know some people on here have found them useful. In situations like this I'm one of those who is prepared to try anything!
 
Sorry op but you need to stop hacking with her until she gets this under control - she could break your leg or your horses.

And yes the mare needs firm handling - but it does not sound like the owner is man enough for the job - my little lad kicked out at me once when he had been on box rest for 12 weeks - he got the full contents of the skip bucket and the skip bounced off his butt and has never tried it again.
 
Thanks all.
I won't be hacking with the mare, at least until the problem is tackled properly. Its not fair to put my horses in that situation again :(

Gingerwitch, like the full skip over the backside idea, will pass it on. However think it will need to be delivered by a professional.
 
Sounds like she should have given her a smack at the first signs of threatening behaviour and been very tough with her from the start, but I would also be very wary of smacking a horse like this especially if she is loose in the field or stable as I am pretty sure she will take it as a challenge (my mare does not respond well to aggressive shouting etc but thankfully I am strict with any lower level nastiness and have only seen that scary side of her once!).

I would be taking a stick in with me when handling anyway and seeking advice from a professional, it might only take one session for them to advise her.

Hope she doesn't get injured! I assume she has thought of mare supplements and Calmers? Worth a try!
 
Jesstickle said:
Hmm. I would actually be a bit wary of clouting that mare over the backside as she sounds the type that might turn round and really have you. The not getting off your foot after bowling you over doesn't inspire me with confidence that she would react well tbh.

My gelding has kicked me. He did get the broom up his ass but I know he isn't the type to take it badly and it was a one off event. He's usually soft as muck.

Is the mare healthy and happy? No hormonal problems? No pain when ridden?
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As a newbie to mares and to anyone who has read one of my posts with my new horse i would agree with this. Sometimes meeting fire with fire is going to backfire on you BIG time so i would also be wary of giving her a wack because she is probably well up for the fight and us mere mortals dont stand a chance to four hooves, teeth and plenty of weight!

Kicking is not acceptable but i have found (quickly i might add) that managing her is a much more productive and safe way for all involved and actually its a better training aid than brute force and agression. My new and VERY beautiful mare shows a real kind and loyal nature but you go in with brute force and she is ready and waiting for the fight. You ASK .... You dont TELL!!
 
Yes, I agree that this is a difficult one. I had a mare that was handy with her heels and teeth, and some of it was fear/agression and some of it was plain grumpy.

She used to back up and threaten to kick if I was in her field and I didn't know if she was protecting her companion or simply wanted me out of the field. I tried lots of shouting. jumping up and down and waving my arms around and in the end threw the rubber feed bowl at her backside when she threatened. It took 3 goes and after that she never bothered to threaten me again - although if strangers came to look at her, her first reaction was to turn her bottom towards them.

So, mares can be difficult and might well return agression from the owner with even more agression so I think I would be going for help from an RA/Richard Maxwell type person. Having a horse that kicks is no fun because you are always on edge in case they hurt someone or another horse.
 
I do not care if a horse is in pain it never has the right to treat humans as a football.

This seems to be a mare that has the owner taped, is a bully and the owner accepts being bullied.
I would tiptoe around this mare with size 18 hobnail boots and she would certainly get more than a 'smack' at the slightest hint of her presenting her backside to me.

When a horse does threaten to kick a yard broom is as good as anything to shove the bristles up their backside. The shock - providing it is done hard enough, sends them forward and this is my chance to get inside the stable and keep driving it around the stable with the bristles on the back belly/flanks, until they show signs of submission.

As for kicking out when being ridden that earns a darn good wallop too!

Horses that are like this can be turned around but it has to be tough love. They will be well aware that pleasing me is better than annoying me. I will take the part of bully and, unless they are trying to be helpful, will get corrected, by voice and then if that is not enough, a poke with a finger, if they so much as blink without permission.

Then when they are trying life gets easy. Much praise is given for something good and they respect the difference.

More than once I have had horses like this and they do respond well and are far happier for knowing the boundaries.

The owner will need lessons on how to keep those boundaries.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I do not care if a horse is in pain it never has the right to treat humans as a football.

This seems to be a mare that has the owner taped, is a bully and the owner accepts being bullied.
I would tiptoe around this mare with size 18 hobnail boots and she would certainly get more than a 'smack' at the slightest hint of her presenting her backside to me.

When a horse does threaten to kick a yard broom is as good as anything to shove the bristles up their backside. The shock - providing it is done hard enough, sends them forward and this is my chance to get inside the stable and keep driving it around the stable with the bristles on the back belly/flanks, until they show signs of submission.

As for kicking out when being ridden that earns a darn good wallop too!

Horses that are like this can be turned around but it has to be tough love. They will be well aware that pleasing me is better than annoying me. I will take the part of bully and, unless they are trying to be helpful, will get corrected, by voice and then if that is not enough, a poke with a finger, if they so much as blink without permission.

Then when they are trying life gets easy. Much praise is given for something good and they respect the difference.

More than once I have had horses like this and they do respond well and are far happier for knowing the boundaries.

The owner will need lessons on how to keep those boundaries.
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Agree and disagree with this ... I would be looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life owning her if i took this approach because i feel she would hold it against me! Mares are clever and they can hold a grudge which makes the difference between the geldings and mares!

Kicking out whilst riding is unacceptable though and that warrants a fairly decent wack!
 
I agree meeting aggression with aggression wont help and may well force her to up the anti and really hurt someone. :( I'm wondering if she kicks out when ridden to protect herself? It sounds to me like kicking has become her default mode when she is nervous or wants/doesn't want something. I really do think a careful retraining plan with safe management instruction is the way to go but all involved need to be on board and committed imo.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I do not care if a horse is in pain it never has the right to treat humans as a football.

This seems to be a mare that has the owner taped, is a bully and the owner accepts being bullied.
I would tiptoe around this mare with size 18 hobnail boots and she would certainly get more than a 'smack' at the slightest hint of her presenting her backside to me.

When a horse does threaten to kick a yard broom is as good as anything to shove the bristles up their backside. The shock - providing it is done hard enough, sends them forward and this is my chance to get inside the stable and keep driving it around the stable with the bristles on the back belly/flanks, until they show signs of submission.

As for kicking out when being ridden that earns a darn good wallop too!

Horses that are like this can be turned around but it has to be tough love. They will be well aware that pleasing me is better than annoying me. I will take the part of bully and, unless they are trying to be helpful, will get corrected, by voice and then if that is not enough, a poke with a finger, if they so much as blink without permission.

Then when they are trying life gets easy. Much praise is given for something good and they respect the difference.

More than once I have had horses like this and they do respond well and are far happier for knowing the boundaries.

The owner will need lessons on how to keep those boundaries.
Click to expand...

This type of response is genuinely very concerning on a forum such as this, where people are asking for advice, and where users may be of any age and experience.

Firstly, I wonder why it is deemed acceptable to 'wallop' any animal in the ways that you describe. Would you do it to a child, a dog or a cat? If not, why not? And why do you feel it is acceptable to do it to a horse? Perhaps simply because they cannot scream or answer back.

I also find it distressing that you are able to say that you 'don't care if it is pain'. I wonder, if you were feeling unwell or in pain and people kept asking you to do things, how you would respond to that?

Why should we expect horses to behave like machines? Personally, I would hate to have a horse who was so shut down that they don't so much as dare to blink without permission! How dangerous is that. Horses who are bullied into submission like that are nothing less than a ticking time bomb, but no one can know when the bomb may go off. Yes, you are right in that punishment can work (sadly), but at what cost to the relationship between horse and owner?

And why go to the lengths of being physically abusive to an animal that you (I would imagine) love, when there are much better, kinder methods which can reach a better end result. Sadly, until we reach a place where this type of 'bullying' (otherwise known as abuse if we were dealing with any other animal or person) we will continue to see more and more horses and ponies with serious behavioural problems, who are suffering both physical and emotional distress. These methods are simply unnecessary and totally out dated.

For the person who owns this horse, I really hope that as you have mentioned, you will help her to find a qualified behaviourist who can work through these problems calmly and quietly, who can establish the motivation behind the behaviour, and the best way to solve the problem. If you can let us know where abouts you are I would be happy to recommend someone in your area. But please do be careful as there are many people out there claiming to be behaviourists, who in fact do not have any qualifications whatsoever. ALL reputable behaviourists will work from a veterinary referral - if the person you choose does not ask for a veterinary referral it is advisable to find someone else who does.

Best of luck. :)
 
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