Advice please on sharp youngster.... now backed!!

[Foxfolly]

Ages ago I posted for advice on backing our 4yo rather sharp little man. We now have him backed, which we did ourselves with a bit of help from an experienced firend. It all went well and a lot smoother than we expected! He has been hacking out and going to riding club lessons for the last few months.

Sorry this will be long but I want to try to give you all his funny little quirks etc.. so you can get a good idea of what he is like!!

About a month ago he did a RC lesson that the instuctor had him doing lots of work over poles on the ground, trotting over them etc. which he was a bit spooky at first but then was good at and seemed to enjoy it, he even did a tiny X pole at the end too. OH came away really pleased with the progress he was making.

We then went to another lesson 3 weeks later and were doing the same but he was a nightmare, it was as much as OH could do to even get him to walk over 1 pole on the ground. He was turning himself inside out not to go over it, wouldn't follow another horse but was quite happy to stand on it, and even kick it, rather than walk over it! A completely different horse to the one in the previous lesson. (He did end the lesson on a good note and had him trotting over 3 poles at the end but that was after an hour!!)
Between this and the first lesson he had had nearly 2 weeks off due to the snow and ice, but had been on a few hacks the week leading up to the above lesson.

Now the ground has dried out we have put poles out in our own field, first time down there he looked but went over a few, then spooked at somthing in the hedge, went into bronk mode, so OH stoped him and he reared twice pretty high. (OH did then take him off and do some schooling so he didn't actually get away with anything!)

He then did had another hissy fit and reared again yesterday out hacking, as we were going up a steep hill and he got a bit bronky about OH's weight being in a different place on his back, also he was behind the other 2 horses and we think he thought he was getting left behind.

But other times he has been really good out hacking on his own and in company, he has cantered with another horse etc..

Both times he has reared have been when OH has stopped him as he was trying to bronk!! I have told OH I thnk he needs to not stop, him but to actually kick him forward when he tries to bronk (but to be fair this is easier said than done when, as he puts, it it feels like he is going to shoot forward and bugger off!!! - I don't think he would bolt though as he is very light in the mouth and easy to stop)

His back is fine, he has a new saddle that fits well, teeth are ok but will be done in the next few weeks. IMO it is a temper tantrum as he is fine most of the time, and seems to do it when he is being told to do somthing he doesn't want to... or even stopped doing somthing he want to, like getting silly and bronking!!

We have and will keep on lunging him over the poles in our field and take him over them to get him used to it.

What he aren't sure about is whether to get angry with him or be sympathetic and encouraging...

He has alway been very sharp and we think he was unhandled except for being gelded and swung the day before the sale at which we got him as a 2yo. He is the sort of horse that will be fine with tractors going past, and other general busy famr noises and activity, in fact he even pushes past the tractor to get to the hay when OH is round in his barn!! We me the hounds and 3 huntsmen on the way home the other day and he was good even when the other 4yo whipped round and cantered off down the road, but then he will spook at you doing the velcro on a brushing boot, or even if you put a boot on the floor he'll spook at it and want to run away from it!!

He also is funny about mane pulling and when we clipped him for the first time he was quite jumpy so we twitched him, which works but when twitched he freezes and pants... (Which I don't like making him do, but we have had to on a couple of occassions for our own safety so we just got it done as quickly as possible!!)

I have alway been quite careful and had the gently gently approach round him as I thought he has just been roughly treated in the past. But occassionally when he is being a prat on the ground we have told him off him off he does seem to pull himself together a bit!!

I was also wondering about the desensitising tecniques I have seen in a Richard Maxwell book, like hanging bags up in the stable at head height etc..

Any tips on how we handle him would be much appreciated!! We are keen to progress with him and definitely make sure that the rearing doesn't become a habit!!

Sloe gin and galaxy tuffle celebrations to those that have got this far!!

 

[rubyred]

Pulling him up when broncing does seem to send confusing signals. I find it much better to send them on, let them shoot forward, relax into a canter, give them a pat then pull up gently. Always prefer to teach them to move forward above all else. The forward will be unrefined initially but I don't like to punish them for that.

I haven't found the hanging bags successful but do use other desensitising methods. If he spooks at say the velcro noise I would have a session keeping making the noise until he learns not to run. Not getting cross but just keep repeating until he stands and can have a pat. Obviously this needs doing without getting trampled!

 

[clairefeekerry1]

my youngster broncs and is very inconsistant but find it much easier to kick her on as they cant get as much power into the bucks if they are moving forwards. if i try pull her to a standstill when she broncs then i've had it as she seems to get more power into them from a standstill!!

 

[SAMgirl]

Hi
[ QUOTE ]
... I find it much better to send them on, let them shoot forward, relax into a canter, give them a pat then pull up gently. Always prefer to teach them to move forward above all else. The forward will be unrefined initially but I don't like to punish them for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this. Providing your OH can stay on and it is safe to do so, try to canter and let him have a few bucks whilst keeping the canter. However, if it is not safe to do so or this isn't your favored approach, your OH is well within his rights to ask your boy to stop, if he rears because HE wants to go... tough! You should insist that he stands until YOU say he may go. He must respect his rider. This isn't a cure (sorry... lol) but just a suggested approach.
As he is only 4, you can't expect miracles, just focus on the basics. A lot of his behavior will be dictated by his confidence (some days he may be more confident than others). Just keep going the way you are doing and I am sure he will mature naturally. I would avoid being too gently gently with young horses as this can increase his tension. It is better to just get on with things!
As for the pole work/jumping can you loose jump him, i would think this would help.

ETA as for the desensitising - we could do with some of that too!!

 

[ajf]

With sharp and spooky ones you have to keep repeating things over and over again until they are really confident before moving onto the next thing. So for example when doing poles leave them in exactly the same place for next time.
If possible I'd stabled him so he can view the whole yard. Do scary things with other (hopefully good/bombproof horses) so that he can see its not scary, the other horse isn't worried and he's still alive!!!
You say he's backed but has he had aholiday since backing? It may just be getting too much for him mentally and just needs a break. It always suprises me how much nicer youngsters come back after little holidays.
Good luck

 

[TarrSteps]

And you are absolutely, positively certain there is nothing negative going on his mouth? 4 is a very bad year for teeth troubles and I've had a few that suddenly started to "stand up" at this age that turned out to have teeth problems. I've just had a horse to ride going this way which turned out to have a huge but only partially erupted, and therefore not easily removed, but completely fractured wolf tooth. Even the vet, who doubted is was anything that dramatic, said it must have felt like an electric shock through the horse's jaw every time the bit hit it a certain way.

Saddles, too, at this age can be a trick. Horses change so much what was fine last week can be agony the next.

All that said, not every horse learns exactly the same way and some simply need small, incremental steps repeated regularly while others can learn something one day and have it for life. "Sharp" busy horses do not always concentrate well and can be particularly prone to taking away the wrong things from lessons, even if it looks on the surface like everything went okay.

As far as being "angry" with him . . .I'm assuming you mean should you be "strict" and correct him, not actually are you justified in being annoyed at him for learning things that are your idea and your job to teach him? That's an impossible call to make over the internet . . . . things like posture, the look in a horse's eye, the set of its ears, situational input, the way its back feels, history of reactions etc etc are what helps you make the call. Behaviours are only expressions, individual to the horse and the situation, and not indicative of a particular motivation.

 

[kerilli]

totally agree with what Tarrsteps has said.
i'd only add that someone very wise said to me years ago that the hardest thing with training horses is to learn to tell the difference between the horse saying "i can't do that" (e.g. - i don't understand, i am not strong enough, i'm nervous, something hurts, or whatever) and "i shan't do that" (i.e. stuff you and your idea)
it sounds as if he didn't really get the whole pole thing the first time, even though it looked as though he did. so either he needs things very simple and slow and repetitive for a good while... or, as Tarrsteps says, something is occasionally hurting.
as long as his bucks aren't humungous i would definitely send him forward and praise him the moment he desists, rather than stop him and risk him learning that rearing is the automatic response to that signal.
hope that helps a bit.

 

[Jamesleaj]

Hiya,
I would keep the lessons short and sweet with a young sharp lad,"lots of pole work I would not do".Whilst you are teaching him you need to maintain full concentration yourself, keep him going foward ,change the gait,change direction and keep him thinking .You have got to change the scene too .
If he does go over the top and they generally tell you, back off and put him out in the field to meditate for a few days before starting again .
You haven't mentioned feed ,maybe you need to cut back on the oats a bit .You may be better off working him from the field.
I have found using a hairdryer on them before clipping helps.
If you find you cannot handle the rearing you may need to bring back your experienced friend to help you over this hurdle.Once they start this trick and it becomes a habit they can get very good at it.
Best of luck with him.

 

[IncaCola]

Hi,
I think all the advice you have been given sounds pretty spot on.
I have had a youngster that sounds quite similar to your. Very sharp and spooky and although he generally loved to work, any small distraction (or sometimes nothing I could see!) could bring on serious temper tantrums. At one point he developed a spin round rear up and then huge buck routine and trying to kick him forward did not help at all. An experienced horseman gave me a hand with him and his advice was as soon as he started to firmly hold one rein and with a consistent contact turn his head round or even walk him in a small circle until you feel himbring his attention back to you and then ask him to go on just repeating as many times as necessary. This really worked and if you OH is a bit wary of kicking on when the bronking starts it could be another tactic to try? It is definitely one to try when he rears and in this case I would keep turning him in a small circle...

Whatever you do I think with sharp youngsters it is important to be firm but gentle and use praise when they do something right as much as reprimands and never lose your temper just repeat, repeat, repeat to until they relax and listen to you then lots of praise and finnish the session.

Good luck with it, I am sure in a few months time you will look back and realise how much progress you have made.

 

[toffeesmarty]

I have read both sets (Breeding and CR) of responses to your query and I have to say how helpful HHOers are!
I could have written your original post. The similarities between your horse and our pony are SO close I thought you were writing about our chap!
If it helps, we decided to turn ours away from September to this week to give him chance to mature physically and emotionally. He has come back into work transformed. I am sure a lot of his issues were teeth related.

I have an additional problem to add in though. Our chap is 13hh and is normally ridden by my 11 year old. She is now constantly expecting him to explode at any moment again and trusting him will take a long time. So not only am I babysitting the pony through his adolescence but daughter as well! Whilst I have ridden him this is not solving the problem as this isn't helping her regain her confidence. She has been walking him and I will take it very slowly for both them. Anyone had similar experiences with a smart pony?

 

[Foxfolly]

Thanks everyone for all the tips!!

I am hoping to ride him a bit more now too so that he doesn't just get used to one person (That means I will have to let OH ride my 4yo too!!)

I think he really enjoys work as he is always keen to come in and also seems very chuffed with himself when we praise him. (As much as a horse can!!)
I wonder whether he is almost a bit too switched on and his mind is in overdrive...

I am definitely keen to be pushing him on when he explodes as I am sure the rearing reaction is agains being abruptly halted, as I said he isn't strong in the hand so I trust him not to bugger off (Unlike my 14yo who would quite happily tank off if you wellied him forward when he was being a prat!!)

We will see how this goes and I will update again, and also get the video of him on if I can!!