Advice please, posture problem with horse

[Bikerchickone]

Very longwinded story, sorry I'll try to be brief.

Heavyweight cob went out on loan to very good riding school run by a charity. Excellent day to day care given etc, visited every day for first month or two then slackened off a bit.

Horse went to them in Natural Balance shoes, as a slightly clumsy heavyweight he needs them and is so much less clumsy in them. Only had fronts on. Asked them to keep him in them.

6 months into loan I get a call say horse I've owned since a yearling (now 12) has rodeo'd and bucked a rider off! NEVER EVER happened before, my daughter rode him from a tiny tot, he;s bombproof and incredibly safe. I insist there's a problem and ask them to get vet. YM says she ran her hand over his back after they took saddle off and he dipped away from her hand. They call vet and their physio. Neither can find anything worng with him at all, and yet he's twitching when under saddle. He misbehaves a few more times and at this point only staff are riding him, yet they're keeping him on because he's such a great horse and they're hoping he'll 'come back'.

I then get a call saying he's now backing away from the saddle whenever they take it in and lashing out at staff with his back legs. This horse has been handled by my daughter from when she could walk. I insist it's pain related and insist I'm allowed to get my equine osteopath out to him at my cost. She finds immense soreness down his shoulders and he reacts so badly trying to ghet away from her that he scares both of us. She's treated him many times in the past and we're both horrified. They accept there's a problem but insist they must continue to saddle him until he "gets over it" osteo and I argue against and win temporarily. I want to remove him but am told they won't pay for any further vet/osteo treatment if he's removed and my insurance isn't valid because he was under theirs at the time of problem.

Eventually we settle on having electronic back pad thingys used and several treatments by my osteo, who has been able to help him somewhat at their cost. The day after their vet (who couldn't find anything wrong in the first place) signs him off as fit, I remove him from the yard.

It's been suggested by them that he'll need completely rebacking and starting as he's obviously dangerous and I should leave him with them for this. I ignore them and remove. Get my farrier out to shoe him when he's due to find that he's got hinds with 1/4 clips on his fronts rather than natural balance as requested, his heels are collapsing and his toes are much too long. He now frequently stands with one front leg out in front and the backs dragging out behind.

He's not lame, osteo comes out once a month and works him over and he's imrpoving steadily all the time. He had three months off and I've been told to ride him, light hacking and a little schooling to try to encourage him out of this awful posture problem. It's improving, we've been riding three months now and he's the same well mannered easy ride he always was (with no rebacking!) and is starting to work really well back in an outline.

Vet advised I do more schooling to build muscle to help him learn to carry himself properly again so we've done this too. It's still not helping the posture. Vet doesn't think ringbone or navicular but we haven't x rayed yet.

Today we put wedges on his fronts and re shod the backs with natural balance. He has a few days to get used to new balance and then I'm to school every day half and hour to encourage him into correct posture.

My question is can anybody give me any advice/suggestions on what else I can do? What if this doesn't work? I adore this horse and will do anything it takes to get him right. He's a one in a million and everybody who knows him thinks he's amazing. He's not in any pain that we can find, but something must be wrong!

Please please comment if you can think of anything I haven't tried. I don't even care if he ends up being a four footed lawn mower, I just want him to be comfortable!

Thanks for reading it all, really appreciate it.

 

[MrVelvet]

Oh gosh what an awful thing to happen

I'm not an expert but how about turning him out in a nice field to relax for a bit? Make sure his feet are well looked after and perhaps let him 'right' himself? and then gradually bring him back into work. He sounds like he's been through it a bit.. a little holiday might do him good.

Good luck x

eta - If you do want to work him, perhaps lunging in a pessoa or similar to help him carry himself without the weight of a rider x

 

[be positive]

Long story and I would be furious but its done now and hopefully you can get him back as he was. It never ceases to amaze me that the so called professionals, several in this case , can make so many errors.

I would consider going barefoot, let him find his own way of getting his balance back. This has probably been going wrong since he left you, a combination of poor shoeing, maybe not great riding and lack of experience on the yard missing his sore back which is from compensating the foot problems I would think.

If you dont get many replies to this thread try a different one mentioning his feet and you should get the foot gurus on.

Diet is important too, to get his feet growing it will need to be correct, low sugar and starch.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Oh gosh what an awful thing to happen

I'm not an expert but how about turning him out in a nice field to relax for a bit? Make sure his feet are well looked after and perhaps let him 'right' himself? and then gradually bring him back into work. He sounds like he's been through it a bit.. a little holiday might do him good.

Good luck x

eta - If you do want to work him, perhaps lunging in a pessoa or similar to help him carry himself without the weight of a rider x

Thanks Mr V, hadn't thought of the pessoa, but do have one so will dig it out. Vet's advice is that turning him out for 3 months hasn't made an improvement so to try light work so we're trying that now. I'm deperate for anything to work!

Thank you so much for reading my horrendously long story.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Long story and I would be furious but its done now and hopefully you can get him back as he was. It never ceases to amaze me that the so called professionals, several in this case , can make so many errors.

I would consider going barefoot, let him find his own way of getting his balance back. This has probably been going wrong since he left you, a combination of poor shoeing, maybe not great riding and lack of experience on the yard missing his sore back which is from compensating the foot problems I would think.

If you dont get many replies to this thread try a different one mentioning his feet and you should get the foot gurus on.

Diet is important too, to get his feet growing it will need to be correct, low sugar and starch.

Thank you BP, hadn't even considered trying barefoot either. This may well be my next choice if the wedges don't work. Vet had said to only keep the wedges for the 6 week shoeing period so they don't cause the compacted heel we're trying to prevent so hopefully I'll know quite soon if it has worked.

Really appreciate the comments, and am on it with the diet

Initially I was livid, now I'm just devaststed. Don't honestly believe they meant any harm but it doesn't change the situation. An awful lot of riders there are disabled riders, so not particularly well balanced either I'd have thought. So regret loaning him now. Never again! Closing stable door, bolting etc!

 

[MrVelvet]

Thanks Mr V, hadn't thought of the pessoa, but do have one so will dig it out. Vet's advice is that turning him out for 3 months hasn't made an improvement so to try light work so we're trying that now. I'm deperate for anything to work!

Thank you so much for reading my horrendously long story.

Ooh didn't realise you had already given him a holiday. You will probably find that beginning slowly and just 1 consistent rider with him he will eventually slip back into his old habits - when he learns it doesn't hurt!!

No problem. must be an awful situation to be in. Look forward to some updates

 

[SophieLouBee]

Perhaps, it is habit? As in, he's learnt that working in this incorrect way makes it hurt less, so is reluctant to change? Once he learns he won't be in pain anymore he might stop.

I am working a KS horse, he's had the op and is fine. However, before the op he used to crane his neck sideways and up and open his mouth, tensing up and puffing, it was his way of dealing with the pain (inexperienced owner didn't pick it up as a sign). He still does it now, and may always do it, but it's getting less and less and significantly less dramatic.

I'm not at all saying it is this, but it could be. I'm just working consistently with the KS horse, ignoring the habit and pushing him through it, then praising him when he stops, he's slowly getting it I think and is much better when he is kept occupied in his work.

 

[Circe]

Hi
You said he's doing a bit more schooling now... Have you tried long reining him & teaching him lateral work on the long reins?
It really helped my boy. He learnt to start carrying himself without a rider hindering him, he seems to enjoy it & he can do movements that would take me an age to teach him if I was riding. Its been the biggest thing to help my boy correctly build muscle & be less sore.
Kx

 

[tallyho!]

So sorry to read that, you must've been furious.

It really sounds to me like he has navicular or strain in his joints/tendons. You say he's not lame but he doesn't seem completely sound either with the way you describe his feet and stance.

The natural balance shoes are trying to emulate 'natural' hooves. However, I consider putting these shoes on hooves that are already deforming is like building a house on poor foundations.

I wonder if you would be able to post some pictures of him and his hooves? Going back to nature may solve the problem but I'd hesitate any advice just based on what you've written.

 

[Black_Horse_White]

My farrier used to put back shoes on my horses fronts and cut the toes short. My horse started to misbehave when trying to get on, he had Ringbone. I'd have Xrays done sooner rather than later just to rule it out. Hope it's nothing and he's back to his normal self very soon.

 

[tallyho!]

B_H_W could be right!!!! I too would suggest x-rays to see what is going on.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If he was mine, I'd X-ray his hooves and lower legs just to know what, if anything was going on. Hoof inbalance alone can cripple a horse (I know from experiance, unfortunately). I would also take the shoes off and turn him away (still looked after but turned out 24/7). Three months isn't very long really when you consider what an awful state he was in.

It was right that you took him back, I'm sure that he would have only have got worse if he'd stayed at the RS.

 

[texel]

As already suggested - remove his shoes and turn him out and give him a rest.
Make sure you have his feet trimmed regularly.

When I worked as a hunt/event groom the horses were always given a few months off, shoes removed and they were able to have a well earned rest.

They were then brought back into work slowly ready for the season. This gave their minds and bodies a chance to recover.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

What a dreadful story!
I'd be livid too. As for putting him right;
I'd x-ray, if nothing 'structurally' wrong, I'd turn away, with the normal care and try acupuncture to right the muscles which have obviously developed incorrectly.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for all the advice. Navicular has been my main concern and been voiced to the vet several times (now my own trusted vet is involved) he doesn't think it is navicular, but we're going to x ray if the wedges don't help.

We've been working on the theory that because he has improved so much and really hasn't been lame, just standing awkwardly, it has become a habit, as mentioned in another post. We're hoping that the wedges will bring him back into normal stance and he'll realise that it's ok to stand properly.

Both the vet and farrier agree that his feet are in good shape so hopefully we aren't going to cause any problems putting the natural balance shoes on, and again, he's been improving with them. I guess I'm just impatient to get him 100% perfect again.

Does anyone know how quickly navicular comes on, and if it can be brought on by iffy trimming/shoeing? Of course I want to think positive, but it does seem odd to me that he'd go there 100% fine and within a few months of inadequate shoeing, develop a condition like this, but maybe it is possible? Or even unrelated.

I'm not at the yard tomorrow but I will take some pictures of him on Monday and post them up so you can see, what angles do you want them taken from? I'll do some of him standing in his strange posture too.

Thank you again so much for taking the time to read my ramble!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I know you have problems with the insurance but there does seem to be a lot of guessing here rather than actual diagnosis by the vet or farrier.

Why did the farrier put wedges without first X-raying? (not navicular x-rays just ones for foot balance) - The X-rays will barely be more in cost than the cost special shoes / wedges so I would do that first so you know what you are dealing with at least in terms of foot balance but if that's not the source of the pain then it's a waste of money.

Mine who has SI strain sometimes stands with his back legs out and piles shavings under his heels I think to relieve pressure although he is sound and works pretty normally. I had in hind wedges after x-rays showed he had a negative sole plane but they were taken off after about a year of using them and made no difference whatsoever. If it is something like this then time off is worse for them than regulat controlled exercise as strong muscles help stabilise the joints.

If you are who I think you are then type of rider where you loaned him are understandably likely to be off balance and could cause or exacerbate an issue. Things do go wrong with horses as they get older and it may have happened if you hadn't have loaned him out. He is a lovely boy though so I really hope you sort this out.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Hi Sussex by the sea, thank you for the comments. I agree with you about x rays but vet is very good and so far his advice has led to improvements so I'm at the wait and see stage now.

Schooling is definitely helping and he is much improved. His feet generally seem to be in really good condition now. He's had the NB shoes back on since July and so have several sets now.

I guess I should reconsider my view point a little because I never thought of him as old at 12 and certainly under saddle etc he acts anything but elderly! There's no pain reaction whatsoever any more but obviously something isn't right. I'm just praying now that I can get him back to 100% again.

 

[KentOsteo]

Poor chap! Sounds like this could be a combination of factors that built up over time to cause the extreme reactions you descibed above - i.e. chronic back soreness from unbalanced riders thudding ubout on his back, combined with a complete alteration on footcare and balance. Also, as you say he was such a lovely boy is there a possibility his good nature was exploited and he was used for the most beginnerish/unbalanced riders, possibly doing a lot of lessons per day? Maybe think of it as going trekking carrying a heavy lumpy unbalanced rucksack in uncomfortable shoes!

One thing that springs to mind is have you had his saddle checked??

As regards the postural problems - these most likely would have come about through him attemting to find a comfortable position to carry on working, and over time various muscle groups have become contracted and weakened, further causing pain and asymmetry. As regards the foot balance and heel collapse; this puts strain on the flexor tendons at the back of the leg and causes the deep digital flexor tendon to squash (very technical!)the navicular bone into the back of the short pastern, causing inflammation and pain. This could be why he is standing with the hinds out behind him - to reduce tension through the flexor tendons - which ultimately may lead to secondary tightness of the hip, pelvis and back muscles. So get those feet back to how they should be and the rest should resolve! Barefoot would be my preferred option...

Keep up with the osteopath, and if you get the foot balance right in time his posture should improve as he strenghthens the correct muscles, and is able to relax the tight ones - but think of it like rehab - its not going to happen overnight

 

[cptrayes]

Does anyone know how quickly navicular comes on, and if it can be brought on by iffy trimming/shoeing? Of course I want to think positive, but it does seem odd to me that he'd go there 100% fine and within a few months of inadequate shoeing, develop a condition like this, but maybe it is possible? Or even unrelated.

You would do well to look at Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com by the owner of a barefoot lameness rehabilitation yard.

All the horses treated at Rockley have balance issues with their feet, and most of them were a result of shoeing.

It can come on slowly, or it can appear overnight, because most "navicular" lameness is actually caused by problems with soft tissue, usually the deep digital flexor tendon or the collateral ligaments or both.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Poor chap! Sounds like this could be a combination of factors that built up over time to cause the extreme reactions you descibed above - i.e. chronic back soreness from unbalanced riders thudding ubout on his back, combined with a complete alteration on footcare and balance. Also, as you say he was such a lovely boy is there a possibility his good nature was exploited and he was used for the most beginnerish/unbalanced riders, possibly doing a lot of lessons per day? Maybe think of it as going trekking carrying a heavy lumpy unbalanced rucksack in uncomfortable shoes!

One thing that springs to mind is have you had his saddle checked??

As regards the postural problems - these most likely would have come about through him attemting to find a comfortable position to carry on working, and over time various muscle groups have become contracted and weakened, further causing pain and asymmetry. As regards the foot balance and heel collapse; this puts strain on the flexor tendons at the back of the leg and causes the deep digital flexor tendon to squash (very technical!)the navicular bone into the back of the short pastern, causing inflammation and pain. This could be why he is standing with the hinds out behind him - to reduce tension through the flexor tendons - which ultimately may lead to secondary tightness of the hip, pelvis and back muscles. So get those feet back to how they should be and the rest should resolve! Barefoot would be my preferred option...

Keep up with the osteopath, and if you get the foot balance right in time his posture should improve as he strenghthens the correct muscles, and is able to relax the tight ones - but think of it like rehab - its not going to happen overnight

Thank you Kent Osteo, that explains a lot of the stuff I was struggling with. My boy is an absolute star and will do anything asked of him so it wouldn't surprise me if his good nature helped him get to where he is. He doesn't ever make a fuss, even on the odd occasion when something is bothering him, if you don't spot it and stop he will keep going as well natured as usual.

I did speak to both vet and farrier about the barefoot option, although I must admit I'm not very keen, he has white feet, which I didn't realise makes them slightly weaker, and him being such a chunky lad I've always been told not to take his fronts off. This from several different farriers, generally in times when cash has been hard to come by and I've wanted to reduce costs. I've never taken the fronts off though because the advice has been not to.

I rode him briefly today (first time in the wedges) and I must admit he did feel a bit strange, not lame, trotted along concrete surface to be absolutely certain, just felt a little different and stumbled twice in the twenty minutes, so I got off. He was still trying to canter on the corners of the school with me as he normally does!

I took some pictures of him standing to try to show what I mean by strange posture but having looked at the pics now he looks much improved. If I can figure out how to get them up on here I will post them later for further advice. One thing I did really notice was the big dropped belly from so much time off or only doing very light hacking! Whoops, don't think that's gonna help much.

Luckily my osteo is back on the yrd on Friday so I'm going to get her to give him another check over just in case the weirdness today is something more sinister! Unfortunately my vet is on holiday til Christmas Day and I don't want a different one because they won't know the history etc.

Thank you again for the explanation of all the technical stuff, really appreciate it, and will give him as long as it takes, he's more than worth the time.

 

[Bikerchickone]

You would do well to look at Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com by the owner of a barefoot lameness rehabilitation yard.

All the horses treated at Rockley have balance issues with their feet, and most of them were a result of shoeing.

It can come on slowly, or it can appear overnight, because most "navicular" lameness is actually caused by problems with soft tissue, usually the deep digital flexor tendon or the collateral ligaments or both.

Thank you Santa Paws, as soon as I get a mo, I'll look it up! Really appreciate everyone's help on here.

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

My horse (and person) osteopath says she always dreads the phonecalls from riding centres for their heavyweight cobs.

They always have the larger and normally novice riders lumping around on their backs and it causes pain and discomfort for the horses. Hopefully with some work you will be able to get him back to trust being ridden again!

 

[soloequestrian]

Carol Brett of Balance International is fantastic for posture and saddle-related problems, give her a ring!

 

[Bikerchickone]

My horse (and person) osteopath says she always dreads the phonecalls from riding centres for their heavyweight cobs.

They always have the larger and normally novice riders lumping around on their backs and it causes pain and discomfort for the horses. Hopefully with some work you will be able to get him back to trust being ridden again!

Thanks TT, I'm very lucky in that I've always had an amazingly good bond with him so the trust for riding isn't an issue, thankfully. The riding school is about as good about care of horses and weight/ability of riders as any I've ever come across but I agree that it probably didn't help him. Still, can only look forward now!

 

[Bikerchickone]

Carol Brett of Balance International is fantastic for posture and saddle-related problems, give her a ring!

Thank you for this, I have googled Carol Brett and found she has an associate in Sussex so I will give her a call. I have had his saddle checked, but it was on my list of things to do again so I'll have a chat with them and find out what's involved.

 

[Bikerchickone]

I can't seem to see how to post pictures, but I have put the pictures I took today in an album on my profile. The ones with the rug on are before riding and the ones without are after. He doesn't look anywhere near as bad as he did I'm pleased to say!

 

[Bikerchickone]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=2527&pictureid=13742

 

[tallyho!]

Domino is a cutiepie. From pics I can see he has rather a long back for a cob and his heels are very contracted which is probably causing caudal heel pain. Wedges will do nothing to help that I'm afraid. What is happening is his heels are compressing into the inner tendons and navicular bone. He has little in the name of a digital cushion. His toes are long and I hazard a guess that xrays would show the pedal bone pointing downward into the solar corium. This is extremely painful.

Domino needs sympathetic trimming to correct his foot balance over a few months. There is a high success rate and in a short period of time at rockley, or get rockley to recommend a farrier or trimmer.

Basically his hoof is too small to fit his foot bones in!

 

[Bikerchickone]

Thank you THHH, I haven't had a chance to look at that page yet but will do as soon as I get a mo. X rays are on our list of things to do, but I have to say the wedges do seem to have made a big difference in only a few days. I took more pictures yesterday and Domino is standing completely square in these, again on the same concrete surface. I'm going to sort out a photobucket account so I can add them properly at some point! Will also try to dig out some of the older pics of him standing wrong so you can see the difference.

I have my osteopath comin back Friday because despite standing correctly now Domino feels a bit different under saddle now and I want to make sure we're not doing any harm, although I've had several people, including YO and farrier comment that he's looking better every day so I'm a bit more hopeful now. My vet is on holiday until after Christmas but I will get him back and talk to him about the points you've raised. I'm so not a hoof expert so it's good to have opinions from people who know their stuff.

Thank you again and I'll keep you posted.

 

[AmyMay]

Does his saddle fit him?