Advice pleaseand a bit of a rant - sorry

[cbmcts]

I've just come back from checking my horses and dog walking......and a horrible row with a really aggresive man!

My horses are at grass livery and at the moment are on 48 acres that has a single public footpath at the far side of the field. As I'm going across the field looking for them I see a man and a young boy (about 7?) cycling through the field, the adult was about 100m ahead of the child and neither of them had noticed the terrible trio of 2 year old horses hot footing it down behind them

They were also heading straight for the cattle who were having a lie down in the woods out of the sun. I was about 250m away from them, don't think they'd noticed me as I was still at the edge of the woods when I shouted at them (v v loudly

) to head towards me fast (cattle have calves at foot so can be a bit over protective, to say the least) and had to shout again before they listened!!!!

Anyway the dad came over with a face like thunder, still hadn't seen the horses and then child arrives, looking terrified as I shoo off 2 nosy youngsters who were trotting to catch up.

With all the kerfuffle my dogs decided that this was much more interesting than rabbiting and come strolling out of the woods, 2 JRTs and a rottie and this muppet goes beserk

Started screaming at me to get that killer on a lead, that they're banned, they are (probably didn't help by asking "What JRT's?, don't be stupid

) By now, the big dog has placed himself between me and this guy but sat as soon as he was told and hasn't made a sound. I managed to call one of the JRT off as she was sneaking up behind him to nip his ankle because he was shouting and waving at me - luckily T***Pot didn't notice that.

I'm very aware I have a breed of dog that doesn't have a good rep, that a lot of people are wary of and all his life I've tried in my own little way to promote the breed positively while also putting off the people who like the idea of a macho type dog but don't have a will at least as strong as theirs IYSWIM so I really try not to react to the numpties who feel it's quite ok to slag off my beloved hound when he hasn't done anything wrong. I think I let myself down this time

as after about 5 minutes of ranting by the father I completely lost my temper, not shouting because I don't when I'm really angry, I just go ice cold and as the saying goes, told him his fortune.....that he was tresspassing, wasn't fit to have a hamster let alone a child, forget him reporting me for having a dangerous dog, I was going to social services to report him for willfully endangering a child. At that point ( Finally getting to the point, sorry) he tried to punch me - said he was a nice type, didn't I

- and the dog jumped up at him and knocked him over, because he was still straddling his bike it didn't take much TBH. The dog was growling at him but I'd swear he didn't bite and came back as soon as he was told to.

T***pot got up and hared off across the field shouting abuse, child still very much at the rear and I can just see him reporting me and claiming all sorts. The question is do I report him to the police first, giving my side of the story and asking them (If they will?) to check up on him as I now know where he lives so he can't say he was savaged by the dog. There were some of the local dog walkers around - one of whom lives in the same road which I know where he lives - who were heading over to see what all the noise was about when the dog jumped and they are happy to support me in the fact that the dog didn't do any damage, he was under control until provoked etc.

Anybody have any experience/advice please?

 

[mattilda]

I would make a report. He was threatning and abusive and tried to assault you apart from anything else. Give them the names of any witnesses who are willing to support you.
I have 2 rotties and daren't let them up into my own fields after 9ish for the very same reaon. Unfortuately for every 10 people who use the footpaths correctly you get a couple of tits who think they can do whatever they like.

 

[cbmcts]

Thanks Mattilda

I think I'm going to have to report him, just a bit worried about the horses if he decides to be nasty.....

Just spoken to YO as they were out when I came back earlier and he's all for going and thumping him!!! Hopefully I've put a stop to that now.

Just pees me off that I'm worried about talking to the police because I'm concerned that they'll automatically blame the dog because of his breed. Grrrr

Stupid ignorant man really doesn't realise that if he had kept going in the direction he wanted to he and more importantly the child could have been killed - I'm used to the cattle, they know me and I don't go near them, let alone startle them while they have calves....to say nothing of the danger of cycling through a field of 30 horses, half of them scatty youngsters.

 

[CorvusCorax]

God, wouldn't you have loved to have left it to 'natural selection'...sorry, not funny I know, there have been a few cattle-related deaths this year.

I'd report him - go to the police, be honest, if he wasn't bitten he shouldn't have a mark on him. My dog hit my thigh with his open mouth last week, going for his ball and it is purple, blue, all sorts and the span of his open jaw.
Don't want to think about what he would do if someone behaved like that towards me

 

[CAYLA]

What a prik............what on earth was his problem, a choice of being trampled or bitten to death

Your dog did his jon and my rotti would have done exactly the same..everytime I call the police out at work for disturbances....they always say...."what have u got to worry about with that big beast, she would eat someone alive, just let he rout"

He was being aggressive and your dog did his job and guarded you.

 

[cbmcts]

Just given a statement to the police - they were going to contact me anyway as TP threatened his dog walker neighbour when the old boy tried to tell him off a little bit by pointing out the dangers.....so neighbour called the police and told him background tale and made his complaint as well.

A nice copper came out and told him basically what I've said above, luckily he's an animal lover as his uniform now has a thick coat of dog and cat hair (aren't all rotts wannabe lapdogs

)but I have to say that even he admitted in a very roundabout way that I could be in trouble if I didn't have independent witnesses as the dog could have been perceived to be "dangerously out of control" as per the DDA even though he was only doing his job....according to him, the only dog legally allowed to protect you is a licensed guard dog????

I have to say that every dog I've ever has always guarded in one way or another....some them have been the traditional guard breeds, others have been breeds that are not known for their bravery, some are a lot more effective than others though! My very elderly JRT has always been a fantastic guard dog....she tried to bite this guy 5 minutes before the rottie jumped at him....so does that make her dangerous? The world has gone mad, it really has!

Thanks for your support and advice tonight

 

[CorvusCorax]

Glad the police were supportive - obviously a serial prick, then!

I had no idea about that licensed guard dog rule - I know a couple of personal protection dog trainers/police dog handlers so will ask them at the weekend, I hope he was wrong!!!

 

[Ravenwood]

Crikey - what a nightmare for you

I can't think of anything useful to say - but hope you hear nothing more from TP or Police.

 

[Charmaine18]

Ugh, some people just need such a good kicking.

If it weren't for the risk of the dog being villified and maybe even PTS, I would've let the Rottie chew on him for a little while! Threatening to punch someone is actually classed as assault (if he actually had punched you, that would be assault and battery), although I'm sure the policeman knows more about that than me lol. I really really hope the police scare him into being a bit more considerate, although I'm sure that won't be the case unfortunately.

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

Total tosser

!! What a nightmare for you - no consolation I know but if that had been my sisters lab and someone tried to punch her the lab would have bitten not just knocked them over

.....what a tw@t!!

Sorry for your pooch though

 

[Goya]

I'll second the "total tosser" group. I think you have done the right thing by speaking to the police before he got in.
It is a bit worrying about the licensed guard dog rule though. My dogs would protect me if they thought I was threatened. (Lab, collie and collie x)

 

[Sleighfarer]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a bit worrying about the licensed guard dog rule though. My dogs would protect me if they thought I was threatened. (Lab, collie and collie x)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the jist of it is that dogs specifically used for the purposes of guarding require handlers - you can't just let them run around, especially if you stick up a sign advertising the fact that they are there! There is such a thing as the Guard Dogs Act but I think the whole thing is a bit of a legal minefield. The fact that the dog is of a guarding breed doesn't make it a guard dog (poodles guard just as well) - in this case the dog was a pet protecting its owner from assault.

The bloke was clearly an idiot - let's hope the heifers get him next time

 

[cbmcts]

Update....

He's been arrested, charged and bailed. Apparently he would have got off with "words of advice" if he hadn't punched a PCSO who was sent to talk to him yesterday. So the full force of the law is coming down on his head....isn't that a shame

According to the dog walking neighbour he threatened, his OH came round to beg him not to press charges and is absolutely horrified when she was told where he'd taken her son who is only 5 so she's not happy with him either....so told the neighbour to please press charges.....honestly, this guy sounds like some Quentin Taratino villian but if you met him (as long as you didn't upset him, of course) he's seem to be absolutely normal, middle class, good job, 2.4 kids type of bloke.....talk about J & H or Shameless comes to the posh housing estate.

I spoke to a police dog handler, from a different police force that I know and asked for clarification about the DDA and a pet dog protecting his owner. Again this is only one persons opinion but he does have experience of dogs and owners being prosecuted for using dogs as weapons as he is a Met officer but his advice is as follows:
1) Always say you had the dog on a lead as it is proof the dog was under control - if need be you can say you dropped the lead as you were attacked.
2) Remember that if your dog bites an intruder to your property, you can still be liable but you have a good defence....do not allow the police to remove your dog without a court order though as it is unlikely it will pass a court approved temprement test in kennels.
3) DO NOT put up a Beware of the dog sign - you are admitting that your dog may bite - however a sign saying Dogs running free/loose is acceptable. A Guard dog sign can only be used if the dog is licensed and there is a handler present.
4) It is illegal to make someone be "in fear of your dog" (DDA!) WTF, so if a person is scared of ALL dogs that makes every dog a "dangerous dog"..crazy stuff! That is all someone needs to make a complaint under the DDA and it's one of the few laws you have to prove innocence rather then the law has to prove guilt.

In summary, taking the very worst case scenario admittedly the DDA can always be used against the dog owner by any one with a grudge or phobia if they can convince the authorities to act.

I'm Irish and since I got the rottie I don't take the dogs home to Dublin as it is so anti big dogs that it just isn't worth the hassle he gets. I thought things were better in this country but if any goverment/ council choose to, the laws are already here to effectively ban dogs in public. Scary.

 

[CorvusCorax]

OMFG, what a nutjob!
Glad he is getting what he deserves.

Thanks for the clarification on the other thing, I will have a chat with the guys on Sunday and see what they say.
My mate heard a disturbance behind his house at 3am the other night and took his GSD out to investigate.
He called the cops as a courtesy and they ticked him off for taking the dog with him, as they said the persons behind the fence might have had reason to be there and the dog could have been construed as a weapon.
Good reason to be skulking behind someone's garden fence at 3am??!!

You're dead right about Dublin and the ROI as a whole. We never took our dog on holidays years ago because my mother refused to muzzle her in public.
Can you imagine the fun one of our sister clubs had trying to organise a show/trial to include protection work, close to Dublin?!

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

He punched a copper??!! well that just proves what we all thought - a total t@sser!!

I hope he leaves you and the dogs alone now and doesn't come back to make trouble for you or your neighbour.

 

[Spudlet]

The DDA is an absolutely dreadful piece of legislation and anyone who allowed something so sloppily drafted to actually pass into the statute book should be ashamed of themselves (and that's a professional opinion, not a dog lover's one). It really is a byword for bad drafting!

It needs some serious reviewing as it is so widely drafted in some respects and yet riddled with holes in others, meaning that it really is a legislative blunt instrument.

OP, sounds like your charming neighbour is living proof that money can't buy class!

 

[CorvusCorax]

OP - I talked to my pal who is a retired police dog handler who now trains handlers in other forces - just giving him an outline of what happened, he said he couldn't see any court swinging TP's way at all.

As mentioned, you can't fake a rottie bite! And this man is obviously volatile.

If you can prove that you feel that you are under threat and the dog doesn't get a bite in, then the law is on your side.

 

[cbmcts]

Thanks Happy_Hack.

Your guy confirmed what the Met handler said ....but it's still a lousy law and I don't know what the dog would have done if he had kept on coming at me. Until now I would have been glad if the dog did bite (just one, not savage) someone who attacked me but that looks like I could lose my dog

in those circs.

BTW, he was seen on our winter fields yesterday, marching up and down the footpath, probably looking for someone to challenge him so he could have a row

so instead the LO owner gave him a sickly sweet warning about the bunny shooting that goes on (it doesn't

) and how he was only safe if he stuck to the marked FPs. Funnily enough he didn't argue with him. Hmmm, wonder if it was something to do with the shot gun he was carrying,broken over his arm of course.