Advice RE friends youngster

[BobbyMondeo]

A friend at the yard got her pony when he was a foal he is now 2

She has only come to the yard recently and i have gradually seen her loose her confidence with him as he is becoming bargey and bitey and she wants to do showing but its impossible at the moment because he being a brat.

I put my dually halter on him today (which to be fair is a little big for the poor chap) and starting just teaching him about stepping out of my space and he starting to get it (think he will be a quick learner)
However he is very reluctant to back up with any of the usual aids i use and with me using the pressure on the dually.
And is also very lazy in walk (not great for showing)

Any tips if getting him to back up and to keep up with the handler when being led?? Thank you

 

[BobbyMondeo]

please?

 

[Business]

I think that the dually is not the best for teaching a horse to go back (esp. one that is too big) as it puts pressure all the way round the nose, not just on the front of the nose where you want it. I would try swapping to a parelli type or a normal headcoller to teach the horse to go back so the pressure is just on the front of the nose and the horse is encouraged to back away from the pressure point. I would get one step back....gradually increasing the pressure on the front of the nose whilst pairing it with the word "back" until he takes a single backwards, (if nec. tap the front of his cannon bone area lightly with a dressage whip too)...then instantly drop the pressure and praise. Repeat. Gradually once one step is easily obtained (without requiring lots of pressure and tapping with a whip) ask for two. Praise. Repeat.

Leading...if you are pulling him constantly there is no gain for him going faster. Any increase in speed must be met with a reward...drop the pressure. Then ask for a bit more. Could also try flicking the rope/whip in the direction of his flank. Stop flicking / pulling forwards instantly increased speed is obtained and praise. When leading always look where you are going and not back at the horse.

Best of luck hope it helps

 

[jaspejoo]

You could try the parelli yo-yo game? I don't know if you believe in natural horsemanship at all, but i've seen this work if you do it right...
probably be best to google it, but as far as i'm aware you need a long line with a heavy duty kind of clip on it, clipped to the headcollar and use a side to side motion of the rope to make it snake. Start of gently then increase how much you do it, so you are being pretty ferocious and the clip should start hitting them on the sides of the face. They normally lift their head right up then eventually take a step back at which point you stop and praise, then repeat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViHwnrPugMg

Eventually this ends up as you being able to back the horse up using a wiggle of the finger....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usq6F-WPVqo&feature=related


Could also try using kelly marks method of gaining a bond with join up then using some of her exercises to get them to back up and move off on cue....basically using a long whip and long line and getting them to walk when you say, stop when you say, and back up when they are in your space. I think it's all about the owner assessing their authority...might be worth browsing a couple of books or google'ing it to see....sorry for long answer

 

[fidleyspromise]

Good tips above - a head collar or a halter would serve well for backwards.
Any equipment that you use must fit correctly or it isn't as effective. I would personally look to put a head collar on him if the dually is too big.
Also, to teach backwards, I have never put pressure on the nose but have used one finger poking into chest. as soon as they take a step back, they then release the pressure. I accompany this with the word "back" so both of mine step backwards at the word.

Hope this helps.

 

[jaspejoo]

Also, to teach backwards, I have never put pressure on the nose but have used one finger poking into chest. as soon as they take a step back, they then release the pressure. I accompany this with the word "back" so both of mine step backwards at the word.

Hope this helps.

This sounds like the parelli porcupine game which also might be worth looking at

 

[miss_bird]

I also use the finger in the chest with back being said, they soon cop on

 

[ladyt25]

I had a lady/instructor come to help give me some advice with my youngsteir who is just 2 now. He was (well still is a bit) bitey and pushy so she gave me some tips and showed me how to ask him to back up and walk on etc. I would use either a normal headcollar or a control one (just those rope type ones that put a bit more pressure on the nose) and have a schooling whip with you. Tap one of his front legs with the whip, gently at first, whilst at the same time putting pressure on his nose to go back. Increase the intensity of the whip (you are not smacking him though) on his leg until he steps back then stop. Repeat with the other leg. I found it worked really well. I also say "back" to mine but you don't have to, I just find it handy to aid voice aids as well. Mine learnt very quickly and now i really only have to use the headcollar and my voice BUT I will still tap his legs if he gets bolshy again. They have to learn to back and to stand when asked. I didn't find pushing in his chest worked too much as he would try bite if you did that!

 

[pip6]

To be totally the opposite I wouldn't use a rope halter, but a correct size Dually. It's no good using one too big, as it doesn't fit so wont work effectively. The rope across the nose will focus the pressure across the nose when the correct size is used. I use it on very large tb & wb youngsters & it is very effective.

I would personally stay away from anything that involves swinging a large metal clip about to make them raise their head. Not going to get into a debate on this one, just personally I don't think it's a good thing to do. Kelly Marks videos & books are good, as are Richard Maxwells.

Bottom line is your friend needs to find a method she is comfortable with that can build her confidence. Until she has some, he will continue to walk all over her no matter what she tries. Learning to walk well & respectfully in a headcollar is the first lessons of maost training 'methods'.

 

[TGM]

you need a long line with a heavy duty kind of clip on it, clipped to the headcollar and use a side to side motion of the rope to make it snake. Start of gently then increase how much you do it, so you are being pretty ferocious and the clip should start hitting them on the sides of the face. They normally lift their head right up then eventually take a step back at which point you stop and praise, then repeat.

What a horrible way to teach a young horse to back up. Much kinder and more effective to teach them with a hand or finger on the chest along with a voice command.

 

[Jennyharvey]

What a horrible way to teach a young horse to back up. Much kinder and more effective to teach them with a hand or finger on the chest along with a voice command.

Yes i agree. You shouldnt have to hit the horse with a clip, its just not nessesary. All you have to do is to get the horse to move away from pressure. Doesnt matter what headcallr u use, the principles are the same. If you apply pressure to the nose, the horse should respond by moving away from the pressure. Same if u use pressure on the chest. Another thing i like to teach a youngster is to back away from body language, without having to touch the horse. If for example, you are leadig him and he spooks, or tries to evade your space, you want to be firm enough with your body language so that he knows not to run you over. sometimes just raising your energy can send a horse back, but sometimes u need a bit more help. Raising your arms and walking firmly toward the horses head, he should realise u are about to bump into him and move away. If not, just walk into him until he moves out of the way. This is how a lead mare will treat him. As soon as you say move, he should. You want him to stay in his space, and not intrude on yours, this will let him know that you are boss and not something to be run over.

 

[JFTDWS]

This sounds like the parelli porcupine game which also might be worth looking at

Parelli doesn't have a monopoly on common sense :/ (generally I would say a deficiency of it) Giving it a silly name with "game" on the end doesn't make it a more valid training method

 

[Cedars]

I asked for advice on here about this and tried everything. Nothing worked until...

I put stones in a pringles tin and shook like buggery when she didnt move. Right under her head.

So, it went like this. 'horse, back'. No movement. *shake can like mad* Horse bolts into distance. Next time, 'horse, back'. Movement!!

Works a dream and if she gets bolshy I repeat occasionally.

Xxxx

 

[jeeve]

Natural Horsemanship is about the use of phases, so you ask lightly,and then increase the ask, there are 4 phases, once you get a response even the slightest try, you stop and start again after a relevant pause with the lightest phase. I can assure you there is nothing cruel or heavy handed about this. Horses understand it, apparently quicker than most of their two legged friends, and it produces super light reponsive horses.


I am not a Parelli fanatic or NH fanatic, but I do get tired of people who have not the slightest idea of how it works criticising it. It is obvious from your comments that you do not have any interest in it or understanding of it, and that is okay. It might not be what you want to do fair, enough just keep doing what you are doing if it works for you.

 

[jeeve]

Originally Posted by TGM
What a horrible way to teach a young horse to back up. Much kinder and more effective to teach them with a hand or finger on the chest along with a voice command.

Yes i agree. You shouldnt have to hit the horse with a clip, its just not nessesary. All you have to do is to get the horse to move away from pressure. you apply pressure to the nose, the horse should respond by moving away from the pressure. Same if u use pressure on the chest. Another thing i like to teach a youngster is to back away from body language, without having to touch the horseRaising your arms and walking firmly toward the horses head, he should realise u are about to bump into him and move away. If not, just walk into him until he moves out of the way. This is how a lead mare will treat him. As soon as you say move, he should. You want him to stay in his space, and not intrude on yours, this will let him know that you are boss and not something to be run over.


I missed this comment - I have to have a giggle to myself, there you are commenting on PNH methods, and next you are espousing them, this is exactly what he teaches, 1. having the horse move off pressure, 2. having the horse move with body language, 3. having the horse respect your space.

Like I say good horsemansip is good horsemanship, whether you want to call it natural horsemanship or something else. You and Pay would probably be best buddies if you met.

 

[Queenbee]

I asked for advice on here about this and tried everything. Nothing worked until...

I put stones in a pringles tin and shook like buggery when she didnt move. Right under her head.

So, it went like this. 'horse, back'. No movement. *shake can like mad* Horse bolts into distance. Next time, 'horse, back'. Movement!!

Works a dream and if she gets bolshy I repeat occasionally.

Xxxx

I need a 'like' button here! I shall be using this on mine

 

[misst]

Our occasionally bolshy 2yo just got a firm BACK and a finger in the middle of his chest, if he did not step back I made myself "big" and tried again. As soon as he took a step back I praised him. I practiced this at feed times by making him step back before putting his bucket down. Now he automatically steps away which I like them to do anyway - I hate them lunging for the bucket. Be very firm and very consistant and reward quickly. Dont expect him to do more than a step or two to start with. They learn quickly.

 

[JFTDWS]

Originally Posted by TGM
I have to have a giggle to myself, there you are commenting on PNH methods, and next you are espousing them, this is exactly what he teaches, 1. having the horse move off pressure, 2. having the horse move with body language, 3. having the horse respect your space.

I'll say it again, NH does not have a monopoly on common sense... Last time I checked, these three teachings existed in horsemanship BEFORE the notion of natural horsemanship existed. You're right good horsemanship is good horsemanship... Natural horsemanship can be good horsemanship, but you can't take fundamental ideas of horsemanship (good or bad) and ear mark them as "belonging" to natural horsemanship. NH is mostly just re-branding of old ideas, with gimicks and silly names, some of which work, some of which don't...

 

[TGM]

Natural Horsemanship is about the use of phases, so you ask lightly,and then increase the ask, there are 4 phases, once you get a response even the slightest try, you stop and start again after a relevant pause with the lightest phase. I can assure you there is nothing cruel or heavy handed about this. Horses understand it, apparently quicker than most of their two legged friends, and it produces super light reponsive horses.


I am not a Parelli fanatic or NH fanatic, but I do get tired of people who have not the slightest idea of how it works criticising it. It is obvious from your comments that you do not have any interest in it or understanding of it, and that is okay. It might not be what you want to do fair, enough just keep doing what you are doing if it works for you.

I wasn't criticising Parelli/NH methods in general, but specifically the technique described above where the lead rope is swung 'ferociously' until the clip hits the horse's face. Are you saying that you condone this specific method of training?

 

[ruby1512]

I have a rather large IDX who when young was very bolshy and used his size at lot to try and push me around, what I used to do to make him back out of my face was touch his coronet band with my toe along with my hand on his chest and tell him to 'back' it worked for him and now he will back using just the 'back' command, he sometimes has to be reminded but not very often, I was told to try that method by a very old horseman.

 

[jaspejoo]

What a horrible way to teach a young horse to back up. Much kinder and more effective to teach them with a hand or finger on the chest along with a voice command.

To be honest, i think you are being a bit blind sighted in this comment. You need to think of it this way...horses learn by negative reinforcement...human's like to think they learn by positive reinforcement, because we "praise" with release of reins etc, but really the horse learns to perform a certain movement by moving in such a way to relive itself from negative pressure.

In no way am i saying that this will work for every horse, nor that natural horsemanship is the way forward, i'm simpling saying one method which is effective for bargy, nippy ponies. When you actually look into the way to execute the exercise...i.e watch the youtube clips...you often dont need to be particularly harsh, no more than a smack on the bum if a horse refuses a fence etc(which is common practice) and, it ends up giving a better end result, as everytime you want to ask you horse to back up...you don't have to pee him off by poking him in the chest with your finger when you want him to back up....you can simply wiggle your finger. And also, how does poking him in the chest teach him respect of your personal space?

just a few points to ponder....

 

[Tickles]

I would never hit a horse in the face with a clip or anything else as a training method (or ever in a foreseeable circumstance...). 'Big' body language should do the trick most times out of ten. That a plenty of positive reinforcement to reassure horse they have got the idea as soon as you get the back step.

 

[joeanne]

You and Pay would probably be best buddies if you met.

And that made ME giggle!
Pat Parrelli and his wife Linda can keep thier "games" particularly when it involves bashing a partially blind horse round the head with a leadrope clip, or the completely brutal treatment of RW's horse Catwalk.....shamefull!

OP, lots of good advice given.
Youngsters can be a pain (mine is at the moment!) but a firm "back" and a poke can achieve the required result in no time!

 

[jeeve]

The aim is not to have to increase the phases, but to have the horse respond on 1st phase, yes it can seem a bit brutal, but it is all about feel and timing. You could use this method incorrectly, like any method, or you could obtain a positive result.

Generally if you are effective you may only need to increase the phases may be once or twice, usually not more than 6-7 times. So if you are effective then the horse might feel a bump, (a lot less than the kind of bump horses get in the paddock from other horses on a daily basis).

Horses learn quickly, I have used this method with my horses. If I was any good at video and posting I would load them up. I have to say that I can do some fantastic things with my horses and I am a complete numpty. My friends and aquaintances that are a lot more disciplined and dedicated than me have achieved phenominal results. But there are plenty of great horse people out there, and many object to Parelli (and the marketing machine- I guess I am not into the hype that surrounds him, I am a bit out of the loop about what they are doing currently).

Pat Parelli did do the first ride/backing on my horse in 2000 in Australia at a demo in front of about 2000 people. My ISH was execllent, he worked him at liberty there was no stress or pressure, he was going well, and then Pat allowed the horse to come to him, touched him all over and eventually hopped on bare back and bridleless, and layed all over him, my fellow was as good as gold, and went to NH trainer after that and I think it was the best possible start for him. Do i like Pat as a person, not that much, is he a good horseman well he is. He might make mistakes from time to time.

 

[TGM]

To be honest, i think you are being a bit blind sighted in this comment. You need to think of it this way...horses learn by negative reinforcement

So because I don't agree with your opinion, I am 'blind-sighted'! LOL! I am familiar with the concepts of operant conditioning and I know that both negative AND positive reinforcement are effective in animal learning.

...human's like to think they learn by positive reinforcement, because we "praise" with release of reins etc, but really the horse learns to perform a certain movement by moving in such a way to relive itself from negative pressure.

I am quite aware of the true concept of positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement occurs when an animal receives a favourable outcome when a certain behaviour is performed. Classically, this tends to be a food reward - an example of this would be a horse receiving food when being caught in the field. However, for some horses a wither scratch or a soothing voice can be their reward. So it is possible to use proper positive reinforcement effectively in training, although negative reinforcement is used as well.

I am not opposed to negative reinforcement at all, however, it is important the the type of negative reinforcement used is fair and humane, and that is my issue with the technique described above. I do not feel that banging a metal clip on the sides of the horse's face (which is a bony and vulnerable area) is humane.

you often dont need to be particularly harsh, no more than a smack on the bum if a horse refuses a fence etc(which is common practice)

Firstly, I would never train a young horse to jump by smacking its bum, and by the same standard, I wouldn't condone teaching a horse to back, by bashing its face. A smack on the bum is only acceptable when a trained horse is deliberately disobedient in refusing a jump. In addition, the bottom is a well-padded part of the body, and totally different to the bony and vulnerable face area.

you don't have to pee him off by poking him in the chest with your finger when you want him to back up....you can simply wiggle your finger. And also, how does poking him in the chest teach him respect of your personal space?

This shows that you have not read my post properly - the use of a hand or finger on the chest is the INITIAL cue whilst teaching the movement. Once the horse understands that he is required to go backwards the use of the hand on the chest can be phased out and just a verbal cue used (or whatever other cue you wish). I prefer a verbal cue because it can be used even if you have your arms full of rugs, haynets etc.

 

[BobbyMondeo]

Oh gosh, i didnt even realise had comments on this post and just read them all and its turning into an argument! Eeeek

Just to clarify the dually halter is tight enough on his head BUT it is on the very smallest holes so the rope part round the nose isnt as effective as it could be. I taught my horse to back on dually and now he moves when i say back, just this little is more stubborn i think.

I will try some of the suggestions and see how he goes, thank you. Some i wont be trying as i do not in any way agree with them and neither would his owner

 

[tigerlily12345]

i have to admit NH methods do seem to get very good results and they are very impressive but i dont think its good to condone swinging the rope "pretty ferocious so the clip should start hitting them on the sides of the face" or any of the scaring the horse into submission

 

[AmyMay]

so you are being pretty ferocious and the clip should start hitting them on the sides of the face.

Good grief........................

 

[BobbyMondeo]

Good grief........................

Yeah tell me about it!!

I think my friend would kill me if i did that to her pony!!

 

[team barney]

A friend at the yard got her pony when he was a foal he is now 2

She has only come to the yard recently and i have gradually seen her loose her confidence with him as he is becoming bargey and bitey and she wants to do showing but its impossible at the moment because he being a brat.

I put my dually halter on him today (which to be fair is a little big for the poor chap) and starting just teaching him about stepping out of my space and he starting to get it (think he will be a quick learner)
However he is very reluctant to back up with any of the usual aids i use and with me using the pressure on the dually.
And is also very lazy in walk (not great for showing)

Any tips if getting him to back up and to keep up with the handler when being led?? Thank you

Is he still entire? If so gelding will probably help (not always but it usually make a significant difference)

I would advise against harsh halters, time and patience are the greatest tools when dealing with youngsters (bratty or otherwise). I would advise your friend to gently ask for back up by applying pressure with the palm of your hand on his chest, as soon as the horse offers the slightest motion backwards reward him with either a food treat, tickle on the withers or whatever he enjoys. Done over a period of time the youngster will learn to respect space and not fight you for it.

Approaching any horse with a fight attitude achieves nothing, all horses are well beyond are strength and yes we can cause them pain if we so desire but it is not the basis for a productive relationship. I have known horses treated in such a manner, one day they see a weakness and the result is not desirable to any human.

I have known horses trained by certain NH methods and as soon as their owners stop constantly establishing their leadership the partnership goes to the dogs.

Please don't Parelli him, unless your friend wants her equine relationship to be based entirely on domination it is not the way to go.

Pat Parelli is not a good horseman, I wouldn't let him near any horse of mine let alone a youngster. The idea of him backing any horse makes me cringe, what ever happened to the tradition of sticking a lightweight on for the formative training? I pity the poor youngster's backs from RTTH and IAW, he isn't a small man, and isn't even skinny.

Anyone who finds this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2RRH9KKPjs funny (look at 35sec in) should never be allowed near a horse, let alone a youngster, Parelli do find it highly amusing that is why they posted it. The horse's back must be killing it