advise needed - not a novice rider mounting issues

[maj]

hi
I have been on this site for a short time - I bought gismo pureley to just hack western style - I have previously jumped affiliated to foxhunter level at Wembley and also hunted and broke and schooled hundreds of horses
he was perfect for 9 weeks - well not perfect - he had an issue on mounting - he wont stand and arches his back - before u ask his back was checked and dealer rode him in English saddle - I ride in western saddle - no saddle issues - I persevered - he is better all the time on the roads - hes like a youngster cant use too much leg but hasn't improved
today after 9 weeks of hacking at least 3 to 4 times a week has I thought he would exploded when I mounted - he reared and then bucked 3 times after wich the 4th time which was a flybuck I was deposited - im lucky I was sore but not severely injured - I am 55 - this is not easy at my age but I am now and I hate to say it scared to get on - I don't want to give up but I feel its hopeless
the lady t bought him off is a teacher and perfect said he never bucked - I asked that when I bought him as I saw him just lift his bum when she rode him but these were flybucks real bucks - I can sit bucks burt not these - I think its tome to have him put down and cut my losses - I would never sell him on - please give your opinions

 

[PorkChop]

My opinion is that he gave you warning signs that something wasn't right and you ignored him.

Get him thoroughly checked out for any pain and then go back to basics, I think it would certainly be worth giving him the chance.

 

[swampdonkey]

I think 9 weeks is too soon to be talking about putting him to sleep.
Could be something as simple as he isn't happy in a western saddle?
it might be that he is just unsettled after the move.
Maybe you are not the right owner for him. If he was perfect for his old owner then I'm sure he can be again, you just need to find out what is upsetting him.

 

[maj]

the old owner was a dealer - he was the same in her English saddle as my western - it took her 3 months to get on him without someone holding him - he was shoipped over from Ireland 6 months previous in a poor state - im no idiot in the horse world - I knew he had a dodge but she said he never bucked - if I cant own him - I hate to think who can - some of you on here are so unknowledgeable - I have been in the horse world for over 40 years - I was hoping for some real helpful advice

 

[be positive]

the old owner was a dealer - he was the same in her English saddle as my western - it took her 3 months to get on him without someone holding him - he was shoipped over from Ireland 6 months previous in a poor state - im no idiot in the horse world - I knew he had a dodge but she said he never bucked - if I cant own him - I hate to think who can - some of you on here are so unknowledgeable - I have been in the horse world for over 40 years - I was hoping for some real helpful advice

If it took 3 months for her to get on without help this is likely to be a deep seated issue that he has not fully got over, he probably never bucked with her because she had help and avoided it, he may be struggling to carry the western saddle if his back is not strong, I would get a physio to check him but suspect there could be something that may not be resolved without veterinary intervention, he could well have KS and been coping but now it has just got too much.
You say his back was checked but time has passed it may now need another look, I would also not want to pass him on but feel it too soon to be writing him off without trying to find out what is going on, if he has always arched his back on mounting he has been giving signs all along that there is something amiss, if you don't like suggestions that it may be pain related I don't know what you would term helpful as in my experience pain needs to be ruled out first especially if you are considering pts.

 

[HeresHoping]

the old owner was a dealer - he was the same in her English saddle as my western - it took her 3 months to get on him without someone holding him - he was shoipped over from Ireland 6 months previous in a poor state - im no idiot in the horse world - I knew he had a dodge but she said he never bucked - if I cant own him - I hate to think who can - some of you on here are so unknowledgeable - I have been in the horse world for over 40 years - I was hoping for some real helpful advice

You've had two responses and you throw this in? I hope that was a typo.

Ok. From someone knowledgeable...and experienced in the bucking bronco (read my past posts).

Your horse is quite clearly saying something isn't right. And has been since the moment your dealer decided to get on him. If he was 'cold backed' - and I use that term loosely as there really isn't such a thing as a cold back, just a horse responding to pain, or the memory of pain, be it a slight stiffness to ulcers or kissing spines when she had him, not wanting to go near the mounting block is quite a clue. Arching his back is also quite a clue.

I had a horse with Kissing Spines. He would arch his back when you mounted, even after having a saddle made to fit him. He was, for the most part, ok out hacking - just the odd buck in what could be passed off as excitement. Adrenalin is quite a good analgesic. But he would also, in the school, bronc and bronc and it scared the life out of me. Things I now realise indicated that he was in pain.... turning his backside on me when approached with a bridle in the stable; not liking his hind feet being held up for too long; the bronco act; the increasing aggression. He was put down in the end, because it also transpired he had sacroiliac issues that were beyond repair, and he was becoming dangerous.

I also had a horse that would, on occasion, arch his back when you got on and, after a month or so, turn his bum on you in the stable...here we go again, I thought. Having had one horse with KS, I read absolutely everything there was to read on it. It can only be diagnosed with x-rays, and is often the result of other issues - e.g. sore hocks. Fortunately, it wasn't KS. It was a mild case of ulcers. And fairly easily treated. Adjustment of diet and a chat with the vet for a prescription and the arching back went.

Don't write him off. No one is suggesting you pass him on. Invest some time and money with a thorough vet check and then make a decision. KS can be treated very successfully - you could be riding again within weeks. SI injuries, not so much but time can be a great healer.

But before you do, get his teeth and saddle checked. And see what your local equine chiropractor thinks, too. They can't make a diagnosis, but they can in many instances identify sore points for your vet to examine more thoroughly.

And please don't be so dismissive of the advice you get on here.

 

[numptynoelle]

Completely agree with HeresHoping, especially about getting the saddle checked, as you've said in a previous post you don't know much about Western tack. Good luck with getting to the bottom of it, he's a handsome guy :smile3:

 

[maj]

thank you so much to the last 2 posters - I dont want to give up but I also cant take another fall like I had - my sister suggested kissing spines - I will look at this
hereshoping - its sad he was put down in the end - gismo is just 8 so I hope I can find a reason for this problem - I m so depressed right now - I thought I had found my perfect horse to end my years on but I wont ever pass him on - please anyone keep helping me -

 

[maj]

I don't know much about western tack but I did take a coat hanger over his withers and took tha t to the lady who then made a pink plate to be sure we had a saddle that fitted - the saddle isn't the problem I know that - he has had his back checked but can people here recommend first class chiropractisers - its like tooth dentists some are good some are not

 

[numptynoelle]

I don't know much about western tack but I did take a coat hanger over his withers and took tha t to the lady who then made a pink plate to be sure we had a saddle that fitted - the saddle isn't the problem I know that - he has had his back checked but can people here recommend first class chiropractisers - its like tooth dentists some are good some are not

At the end of the day, it's your decision but I would still whole-heartedly suggest getting a saddle fitter out to see the saddle on the horse (in addition to vet, chiro etc). What do you have to lose? If it fits, perfect, that's one thing ruled out and you are no worse off than you were before. If they think the fit needs tweaked, then great, you have somewhere to start.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

Vet opinion?

 

[WindyStacks]

I think I must've missed something, because did you say you know there's no problems with the saddle because you took a coat-hanger template to the shop and bought a style of saddle you're unfamiliar with?

 

[FestiveFuzz]

On the off chance that you're not a troll (and I had my doubts from your OP to be honest!) I'll add my two cents.

By the sound of things Gizmo has given both you and the dealer many warning signs that things were amiss so hopefully now you will start listening to him. From what you've said it definitely sounds like a pain response. I would initially be looking to have his back and tack checked. As someone with 40 years experience and who has ridden at Wembley (!) I'm amazed that you thought it was acceptable to buy a new saddle of any kind without having it fitted by a professional. If these checks don't throw light on the issue I'd look to get him scoped for ulcers. I wouldn't completely give up with him just yet as there's still plenty of avenues to explore. Best of luck!

 

[Booboos]

The OP is clearly posting from under a bridge, don't feed!

 

[maj]

I am certainly no troll and am most offended you think that - - but its clear to me that this isn't the site I wish to be on if that is how hateful people can be on here

 

[nianya]

My first thought was the saddle. Too many people who ride in a western saddle figure they can pop anything on and it'll work, but I've seen so many bad fits that way. It can be just a little too long for his back and cause discomfort near his hips, or tilting forward putting all the weight above his shoulders, it can be too tight in the gullet too. If you're using a back cinch it could be too tight or too loose etc etc. This is doubly true if that horse has never been ridden in a western. It changes how the weight is distributed.

However, since he was doing it to the dealer and you don't know his history I would get a check out from the vet. Whether or not vet finds anything, he's been doing this long enough and getting away with it that he's going to need retraining. But if you really have 40 years experience riding then all of this should have been the first things you'd thought of too. Were you just looking for confirmation or are you hoping for something else?

 

[Podgelover]

I think its really harsh that you wont consider "passing him on" and would rather put him down! why cant he go to a loving home as an unridden companion!

I have a ridden and a companion and I love them both to the moon and back!

 

[9tails]

I am certainly no troll and am most offended you think that - - but its clear to me that this isn't the site I wish to be on if that is how hateful people can be on here

Unknowledgeable, hateful people. You're a right charmer.

40 years in the horse world and it seems you've not learnt a thing. To have the audacity to think nobody else could do better for this horse than you beggars belief.

 

[Casey76]

So, has the saddle got full QH bars or something different? Do you have a wide or narrow angle fork? Is the saddle an all-around, trail saddle or something else? What type of cinch are you using? Are you using a back cinch? are your latigos well tied up or are they dangling? How heavy is your saddle? Are you using a Navajo blanket or a specific Western pad - any extra fleece lines pads?

If a horse is used to riding English, it can take a while to get them used to riding Western as the fit of the saddle is so different. If Gizmo was complaining in an English saddle, the extra weight of the Western is probably not helping matters.

 

[maj]

the saddle is a reinsman reining saddle which cost 2 thousand 3 hundred pounds - I am not using a back cynch- I am using a felt cynch and a reinsman contour pad - the fit is perfect as I tried to explain previous - I used a wire coathanger - those old ones u don't see now and bent it over his withers to use as a template - the lady then used her template to see which would be the correct fit for him - it does not sit too far back and it does not rock - ituck the latigo through the top of the slot as the lady showed me how to do but the issue is not a saddle one - the dealer rode him in English saddle - also I have been hacking him out for 2 to 3 hours at a time and he never presents any problems when out hacking - he is the perfect well mannered hack in traffic and with any object -if he has a bad back or the saddle doesn't fit right why doesn't he arch his back or buck when out hacking- - this I feel is a form of nap - he deliberately wanted me off - I can lunge him cantering -with saddle on - no bucks at al
I was really trying to make sure in my head and try and talk through my problem but I clearly see now that I will never get on him again -

 

[HeresHoping]

Where abouts are you, OP?

I understand your reticence to have the saddle checked, I really do, but horses change shape - sometimes rapidly. My KS boy did. And as I said, he was ok hacking to start off with. It was only in the school that he tried to kill me - funnily enough about 8 weeks after I bought him. And my WB mare used to have an extra shim in the winter - it didn't matter how I worked or fed her, she'd just trim up in the winter and after three adjustments (she'd start saying it was too tight across the shoulders come end of March when the weather warmed up a bit and the grass started growing) we decided the shim route was best. We being a very well known Master Saddler and fitter and I.

There are 100s of stories on here about horses being well behaved on hacks but absolute beggars in the school or in other environments to start off with. In 90% of the cases, investigations by professionals in their field have revealed a pain issue. Your horse told the dealer he wasn't happy. And he has told you he isn't happy.

Without wishing to sound scathing, because no matter how many ways I type this it does, I think you came here looking for some justification for a decision to PTS. Although I concede that in a previous post subsequent to my previous comments, compassion did suggest otherwise. Unfortunately, most of us are not like some pros with a pot of money and a 'horse is a commodity - if it doesn't work, junk it' attitude. We only have one or two, and we invest a huge amount of time, money and emotion in them. PTS is not something we'd do without a full exploration of the issues the horse is displaying.

Let me know where you are, and I'll make suggestions for chiropractors in your area. If you don't feel he's the horse for you, then by all means, find something more suitable. However, snuffing his life out to do so is a bit, well. You know.

 

[debserofe]

You could have a point re napping (avoidance) - you say you are riding him for 2 to 3 hours at a time so you must be able to get on him sometimes. Might I suggest that you re present the mounting - i.e., teach him to be mounted correctly, almost to the point of restarting him - first get him to present at the mounting block, once you have got him to stand square and still at the mounting block, quit for the day - next, with him standing square and still at the mounting block, rock the saddle (gently to start off with and then with increased movement) and lift the stirrups away and back against his sides (again with increased pressure but - like everything don't overdo it - just enough to replicate someone who did not take a lot of care when getting on a horse) - if he moves, put him back and start again and once he stands still and ignores the movements, quit! Gradually increase this work until you are able to put a foot in the stirrup and step off without him moving, then onto leaning across, then sitting in the saddle and, provided he stands still, getting off again - quit - move onto walking a step, reward by getting off and so on and so forth! Slowly build up - he is only young still so you have plenty of time to work through this and gradually build up the workload without overloading physically or mentally - good luck.

 

[debserofe]

You could have a point re napping (avoidance) - you say you are riding him for 2 to 3 hours at a time so you must be able to get on him sometimes. Might I suggest that you re present the mounting - i.e., teach him to be mounted correctly, almost to the point of restarting him - first get him to present at the mounting block, once you have got him to stand square and still at the mounting block, quit for the day - next, with him standing square and still at the mounting block, rock the saddle (gently to start off with and then with increased movement) and lift the stirrups away and back against his sides (again with increased pressure but - like everything don't overdo it - just enough to replicate someone who did not take a lot of care when getting on a horse) - if he moves, put him back and start again and once he stands still and ignores the movements, quit! Gradually increase this work until you are able to put a foot in the stirrup and step off without him moving, then onto leaning across, then sitting in the saddle and, provided he stands still, getting off again - quit - move onto walking a step, reward by getting off and so on and so forth! Slowly build up - he is only young still so you have plenty of time to work through this and gradually build up the workload without overloading physically or mentally - good luck.

Plus: Whilst trying the above, I would still also investigate the pain route as I was given a mare (was told that she was nasty!) that could'nt be caught, turned her back on you in the stable and was reluctant to be mounted. She would also buck in the school but not out on a hack - turned out that she had low grade arthritis in her right shoulder and ulcers in her mouth - being caught meant being ridden and, because her previous owner was scared of going out, she was made to do lots of schooling, circles! I got her teeth sorted out and then left the riding alone whilst we worked on catching, etc. You can now walk up to her in the field with a bridle in your hand and she will walk up to you, put her head down and pick up the bit and stand to be mounted - we don't school her, except out on a hack and she is a grand mare with not a bad bone in her body!

 

[ester]

the saddle is a reinsman reining saddle which cost 2 thousand 3 hundred pounds - I am not using a back cynch- I am using a felt cynch and a reinsman contour pad - the fit is perfect as I tried to explain previous - I used a wire coathanger - those old ones u don't see now and bent it over his withers to use as a template - the lady then used her template to see which would be the correct fit for him - it does not sit too far back and it does not rock - ituck the latigo through the top of the slot as the lady showed me how to do but the issue is not a saddle one - the dealer rode him in English saddle - also I have been hacking him out for 2 to 3 hours at a time and he never presents any problems when out hacking - he is the perfect well mannered hack in traffic and with any object -if he has a bad back or the saddle doesn't fit right why doesn't he arch his back or buck when out hacking- - this I feel is a form of nap - he deliberately wanted me off - I can lunge him cantering -with saddle on - no bucks at al
I was really trying to make sure in my head and try and talk through my problem but I clearly see now that I will never get on him again -

Ah because of course we all know that expensive saddles must fit.

Frankly OP if we could all use a wire coathanger and get a saddle to fit I think we would all be doing it!

It is unlikely the saddle at the dealers was a great fit either, essentially you either get saddle checked and/or get a veterinary assessment though probably the latter if I were you and stop riding. Is he any better bareback?