Aggression towards other dogs...

[mainpower]

My oh took on a Springer with a view to training her up for beating (right now I want to beat her up with a view to training), this was at the beginning of December. History unknown but was one of several dogs left behind by travellers. She is estimated to be about 18 months now. I have an "all mouth and no trousers" Jack dog, and two lurcher bitches. After the springers first season (which developed into a phantom), in June she attacked the Jack (he is very vocally protective of whatever is in his possession, but the lurchers just walk over him and take it anyway, his reaction is to skulk off muttering, but the Springer bit him when he grumbled at her. She's had a scrap with Lily, but she stood her ground and Springer hasn't tried again. But the other day they were all at my stables, having a good game of tag in the yard when she turned on Sophie (total dope on a rope dog, loves everyone and everything, tail permanently on wag setting type of dog), and was really in for the kill. Sophie ended up being thrown on her back, her greyhound collar saved her throat (scarey bite marks in in) and had her thigh torn open (cue £126 vet bill).
Springer has shown no aggression prior to season, that seems to have been the trigger. We are keeping her seperated from the others, but it's like a French Farce, out one door, in the other, blah blah and is certainly not a long term solution.
Can anyone (before we look down the re-home route) give any help? Is speying likely to calm her down? She's a lovely dog with humans, I don't know much about spaniels (I love my long-dogs) but she looks more a worker than a pet/show strain. As her re-call is taking a long time to perfect (!) she is walked on a long line but has never shown any interest in strange dogs she might see out.
OH, btw, Jack is castrated, lurchers not speyed yet.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Bitches, what a total bitch, bitchfight, bitchy people on yards - those phrases are popular for a reason!!!
I would certainly look into getting her spayed, especially if she has already had a phantom.

Probably insecure, in a new home, trying to become the Queen Bitch and throwing her weight around. Two of our females used to have horrendous fights and had to be separated, agree it's a total pain in the bum.

 

[CAYLA]

I agree with CC you have a maturing dominant bitch amongst the pack, I would also spay her and teach her some manners, she may be moving up the ranks but she needs to know there is a consiquence for her actions and it comes from you, you re the leader and she should be aware that you are aware she is pushing her luck at any one time, watch for triggers and body language and get ready to grab her or pre warn her if you can catch her in the process of attack, make sure she always has a collar on for you to grab her, use your angriest voice "no" or "leave it" and drag her off for time out, when you let her back in amongst the rest, no fuss or speak jsut give her a chance to settle once again, she eventually should get to the stage where you can literally point in a direction with your firm voice and warn her and she should back off.

In all other aspects of her behaviour make sure she knows the boundaries and dont let her get away with anything, I would not completely seperate her as you are now, instead use a crate for safety, this way she remains with the pack as segregating (can make matters worse) to the point that every re introduction end in a fight, so crate her when you are not there to ensure no figts break out when you are gone and by way of firmness and control make sure a fight does not break out when you are there and have them mix as usual.

Try to lessen the risks of fight by not feeding long lasting treats together or giving one someting to guard and keep excitement to a minimum, i.e. when you arrive home as this is the most common fight scenario, every time she starts a fight scould her and remove her from the situation for a short period and re introduce her without fuss.

 

[mainpower]

Thanks CC and C for your advice!!

 

[mainpower]

Update..... I tried to get OH to have a look on here to read the above advice, he didn't think it fair on Sam to crate her in the room with the others, so she's still living in the front room, but going to the yard/workshop all day with OH. However, I think that's re-enforcing the top bitch status, living with the humans, it causes rows when I want to take my dogs to yard, plus my dogs don't get any "sofa" time which is bad news for long dogs! But we have been walkin then together and she's not paid them any attention at all. However, about a week ago, she'd been in the garden (via the french doors), and when she came back in she spotted the front room door was ajar, and flew through like a rocket, burst in the kitchen and attacked Lily, my OH couldn't seperate them, picked Lily up but Sam was hanging off her leg like a pit-bull. Luckily she had her above the hock, where it's just flesh (where a horse would get a thorough pin) and several days of sympathy sorted it (Lily is extremely delicate, even for a lurcher! Now in my mind that was a totally unprovoked attack and I'm worried that they will never be able to get on!

Help anyone?

 

[CAYLA]

DELETED, due to my stupidity

 

[CAYLA]

I do agree taking her to the yeard every day does not really help solve issues, usually the more time the aggressor is kept at bay/confined seperate from others the reunion is usually a fiery one or indeed builds up to one, there is nothing worse than a bitch fighter, was there anything happeneing in the kitchen or was your other dog just lounging around? also lifting them does make the aggressor worse, it make the situation a lot worse and literally heightens the situation, does the bitch get reprimaned or do you jsut try and remove the victim?
I would be telling the OH crating a dog to remain in the company of others for the safery of the dogs is not as cruel as the dogs being attacked all the time and having to arrange routine around the aggressor! and keeping them apart (him taking her to the yard) is obs not working, it can seem odd as dogs can get along fine then one triggers just upsets the balance or age/maturity.
I have always had a large pack of dogs always equal half dogs and half bitches, I have 2 pretty dominant bitches in my akita and my staffi x lurcher but have never had any fights, they know to regard me over starting a fight, but I do think that has to do with all the rules you install gives the basis for them not to cross the line when I am here, if im not and I think I may have any issues with any of mine (not that I do, I can leave them all together unattended) I would keep them together but secure as for them not to beable to fighton and other, jsut as the akita and lurcher are kenneled next door and literally sleep leaning against the mesh onto one another in the run during the day, (I would never perminantlry split them so they are kept out of sight from one another) and if I ever get any bolchiness in play with any of my dogs or a sign that one is getting a little OTT then a "I don't think so" is enough from me or OH to have them walk away.

I have qoted again instead of editing.

 

[mainpower]

There was nothing happening at the time, lurchers were in bed snoring, OH was in back garden having a smoke, and Sam was mooching around the garden. I won't take the chance of having my dogs attacked again so will have a go at the crate suggestion again. As for reprimanding? My dealer booted foot in the ribs was what got her off Lily.

 

[CAYLA]

I would say that is a bad situation that you have where by she is literally glazing over and running on in there with no trigger, and in the past when dealing with a dog fight I have definately given out a fair reprimand sometimes there is no toher way, esp if one dogs is liable to kill or seriously maim the other, you now have to get to the stage where she knows you mean business to the point you can yell "fern off" (obs fern is not her name) in a voice that resembels you jsut seeing someone boot your dog and proceed to walk away (sorry needed to think of an example that would get you angry)

I will give an example of the rescue dogs, a situation where 20 dogs are out together and a fight is about to break out, if there are signs first, (body language) squaring off, reaching over) and Im there I will make a bee line for the aggressor and corner it off and tell it with a cesar style dig in the side "leave it" so make it ware im watching and there is a consiquence, if the same dogs starts a fight I can literally get up (im usually sitting in the middle on a garden bench) I will yell out "hey enough" and that dog will scarper, it already realises what my raised voice means and choses to avoid what comes next, firmness and stopping the situation before it starts is always the best, but if it starts you need to get the dog to back off at your say so, it can be done, we can do it with the hardiest of dogs, dogs where you need to move fast and install the consiquence from the get go, esp with bigger breeds or new rotti arrivals, staffs, lurchers on the little dogs, we will not keep them seperate as the purpose is the teach them and socialise them, they are seperated when no one is there but always togehter when someone capable is there too.
Because the dogs before them have also learned the rules we get no jumping in or on, the will dispurse very quickly, I really need to try and film them as examples its easier to show than to describe.

 

[mainpower]

Thanks Cayla .... I think training the OH will be the first step in sorting this!

 

[competitiondiva]

Cayla's given some wonderful advise (as normal!!) just wondered are these dogs allowed on sofa's, beds? (your bed that is?) Do you feed the springer bitch before the other dogs?? Basically if she is sleeping on the sofa and the others on a lower platform and getting her food first, this is re-emphasising the alpha bitch status, also do you feed the dogs before you in a morning and/or evening? Again if you do, you are re-affirming that she is higher in the pack than you. By your OH taking her away, she is getting 'perks' and as said really needs to stay with the pack to enforce her lower position, she could also be getting possessive over your OH and wanting to protect him even from your other dogs, if she perceives a risk. Take for instance my bitch, who will not come up to the horses field because she's had a shock of the electric fence!! She just roots herself to the yard and waits for me to return, but when I have my children with me, she comes too, to watch over them!! She is also an alpha bitch and will let any Dog do anything to her (within limits!!) but any bitch she comes against, has to submit to her!

Neutering will help if it's a hormone related aggression, re only shows itself when she is coming into or out of season, it's good for health reasons too. But if it's an alpha bitch behaviour then it will take more work.

Good luck, I know how hard it can be.

 

[mainpower]

Thanks for your input c'diva ... they are fed on dry low protein food (Jack Russell is prone to ear/skin infections) which is down all the time, so no actual meal times. In theory they are banned from the furniture but the kids do sneak them in the front room from time to time! Much as I love my dogs they are treated by me as dogs... no titbits (mainly because I hate to see dogs drooling/begging when I'm eating), me first through the door, don't go overboard on the fussing (although Skip's been having extra cuddles as he had a seizure this week), I don't go in the kitchen when I get in as they howl when they hear my car pull up, I bang on the door and yell "shut up", and go in when all is quiet. Unfortunately OH has different ideas , loves to cuddle them, often suggests they have "nicer" food, I have managed to train him into only tit-bitting if there's enough for all four at once. Wasn't a problem with his other dog, she was very alpha bitch too but none of the others was bothered enough to challenge her so there was never a problem in the house, only if she met a dog she considered a threat. But Sam seems to want to dominate even though the others are practically throwing the crown at her! The speying was something I thought of as we'd had her for 6/7 months without incident until her first season with us, and the ensuing phantom, when it all kicked off.

 

[CAYLA]

If you find a pattern of her starting or edging when your OH is present then you may have your answer, because by experience if a (best way to put this) less confident person is around then dogs will always takew the opportunity to take advantage of that, we definately find this with the rescues, with some volunteers and my mams OH believe it or not certain dogs can not be let out with others because if their is potential to push the boundary, yet with me or my ma or my OH we see no bad behaviour, im more than happy to sit with all the dogs out on my own as is my OH and my mam, but the few people that are less confident and a "soft touch" to the dogs can only actually sit out with the oldies or my mams own dogs, if a situation or fights occurs they also panick like so have never seen, all you hear from me is my gob, and if I need to I will wade on in their full of hell, the dogs looks at me like im a deranged cow and dispurse, but they always regard me, me and OH even play ball with them on summers days, no one else will do that because they are scared a fight will break out, yet they are happy to watch

I will find u a picci of play ball

 

[EAST KENT]

Wish you the best of luck with that one...always found OH`s untrainable myself

 

[mainpower]

Cayla, it's not that OH is unconfident, he'll interact with dogs that I won't go near, plus he's done a lot of "gentling" with unhandled/spoilt horses, is often in demand when owners have loading problems, he's very good with animals in that way. And though he's not a bunny hugging type of animal lover he wants his dog to be a friend more than a servant.
Now.... if I could get his "drinking buddies" down the pub to slip some good advice such as yours into the conversation I'm sure he'd listen....

 

[Brownmare]

We had a similar problem with my OH's Jack Russell bitch who spent all day at work with him which she regarded as a huge privelege. The only solution has been to demote her at home (she still spends all day with OH ) by feeding her last or not at all (the skinny dogs get lunch but she doesn't need it), not allowing her on the sofa but allowing others up when she can see etc. it may seem unfair but it showed her very clearly that her place is not at the top plus if she starts anything she knows we will wade in and put her in her place as per Cayla-style

Now we have a very well mannered dog who will let my toddler pet her and even take toys off her.

Also she is spayed but continued to hump her bed regularly for years afterwards so the hormone thing may be worth asking the vet about.