Aggressive filly issues!

[saltpetres]

Hello lovely forumites! I was hoping some of you knowledgeable people might have some insight into dealing with/what might be causing quite strong human-aggression in a 16-month-old welsh/connemara filly. Sorry for another super long "please help me" post, seems like that's all I'm good for at the moment

I've had a lot of trouble finding agistment for my lease gelding after our perfect agistment fell through due to unforeseen circumstances on the part of the landlord, but a lady finally offered me a place in a paddock with her filly. My boy has been in that paddock for not quite two weeks, and I've had issues with the filly being quite bolshy and pushy from the beginning, zero manners whatsoever, nips when she gets a chance and the like (I'm very used to normal welsh-ness, welshies are my favourite, and I usually have no trouble getting respect from horses, she's something above and beyond!), but she's steadily been getting more aggressive, and she's VERY solid, about 13.2 already and she's built like a brick loo, so very strong.

I can usually deal with it okay, but this week I've had the 'flu so my mum went out to feed my boy as I wasn't well enough. I told her not to go in the paddock and just pop the feed over the fence (thankfully!!!) as she's not really horsey and she's 5ft tall/quite petite and has only been on the sidelines/helping me occasionally since I was a kid.
First thing, the filly ran up to her on the other side of the fence and double barrelled the fence four times straight at mum, one time clipping the gelding in the next paddock in the face! Then she tried to bite my mum when she put the feed over the fence. No preamble whatsoever. It rattled my mum as my current horse is extremely gentle and my previous horse would never have dreamt of it.

I'm mostly back on my feet again today, so when I went out at feed time, unfortunately filly has got to the stage where she'll swing her bum at me and kick out with both hinds when I'm just trying to catch my own horse (attempting to ignore her), run at me and just attempt to run straight through me (she doesn't get away with it with me, but she'd just run straight over my mum, I'm sure, plus the lady has three kids including a 4-year-old girl who wanders on her own through the paddocks all the time, which I find terrifying and extremely worrying!!!??) gallop past and kick out at me, try to get me in a corner and swing her bum into me, gets between me and my horse and won't let me near him - and when I catch her to get her to settle down she just pushes forward and through me and tries to bite (hasn't succeeded yet, I learned to ride on a 30yo Welsh devil and I learned to evade bites through great repetition! )

What worries me is that she has zero respect for humans, seems to have no instinct for fear whatsoever, almost no normal horsey "prey response" or whatever, and doesn't appear to see me as an actual entity who could have any impact on her. For instance, she never looks at my face or interacts with me in any normal horsey way. She reacts to me trying to take back my personal space with instant aggression, she almost never backs away.

I've helped break in a very late-gelded totally unhandled welsh before (I did the basic handling/halter training and backed him) and he was a cheeky little beggar, but MUCH easier to deal with than her, and she's been handled since she was born! Apparently. Plus, she's by far the boss of my 17yo 16hh TB gelding. He just follows her around meekly, which meant today he was extremely hard to catch, which he's never ever been before.

A few other things I've noticed about the filly -

she dribbles like a tap when she eats hard feed (she gets some of my boy's feed as he'll never stand up to her and I have no way of separating them at feed time) I've honestly never seen anything like it, she'll have streams of saliva pouring from her mouth the whole time she's eating.

She also does this odd chomping thing where she'll open her mouth fully wide and chomp over and over for minutes at a time (this is unrelated to the eating I think, she does it with an empty mouth before food). It's nothing like yawning or flehmen, just an extremely over-exaggerated chomping. I've looked as far as I can in her mouth and felt her cheeks and nothing seems swollen or hot or in any way amiss, as far as I can tell.

I think she possibly may be in season currently even though it's the middle of winter because today she kept shoving her bum in the other gelding's face and doing that little dribbling pee near him thing that I've seen in season mares do. I have barely any experience with "marey' mares, or really young horses, could her coming to sexual maturity cause any of these things to get worse?

Obviously I'm going to speak to her owner about these things (she's away at the moment), but even if I do, I've got nowhere else to put my horse so I'm just going to have to find a way of dealing with it. I'm a bit worried about overstepping because the lady has offered me this place as a favour and she's bred the filly and is very protective of her. I'm a bit unnerved by the filly though, unfortunately, and I don't really want to get kicked in the head

Fresh-baked e-custard tart for anyone who's made it this far <3 (I just made some, yummm)

Any help or advice greatly appreciated

 

[pansymouse]

Firstly I recommend that you always carry a whip with when you go in the field to maintain your personal space - I used my friends Parelli carrot stick to break her cob of his space invading habit (fortunately he's not aggressive). Secondly the owner needs to get her teeth checked sharpish - it sound like there could be a tooth pain related problem. And thirdly once the teeth are sorted start feeing her small feeds but on your terms; i.e. catch her, make her wait until you say she can eat and remove the feed if she doesn't behave in a manner you deem acceptable. Once I had asserted food dominance over the aforementioned cob he stopped being pushy with me and I gave up carrying the whip.

 

[epeters91]

I know you said it's not possible to seperate them at feed time but is there no way you can bring your horse out of the field to feed? Just thinking that your boy will get all of his feed and the filly won't be filling up on extra food that might add to her energy levels?

Otherwise I agree with pansymouse carry a whip in the field to maintain personal space and get owner to get teeth checked asap. Really if the youngster is this wild the owner should be doing handling work with her to make sure she respects people especially if she's allowing you to share a field with her.

 

[Casey76]

Filly needs a bl**dy good hiding with a blue pipe for the kicking/charging. If her owner mollycoddles her she is only going to get worse.

 

[saltpetres]

Firstly I recommend that you always carry a whip with when you go in the field to maintain your personal space - I used my friends Parelli carrot stick to break her cob of his space invading habit (fortunately he's not aggressive). Secondly the owner needs to get her teeth checked sharpish - it sound like there could be a tooth pain related problem. And thirdly once the teeth are sorted start feeing her small feeds but on your terms; i.e. catch her, make her wait until you say she can eat and remove the feed if she doesn't behave in a manner you deem acceptable. Once I had asserted food dominance over the aforementioned cob he stopped being pushy with me and I gave up carrying the whip.

Thanks, pansymouse! I'd thought about carrying a whip before (I usually flick the leadrope out at her when she runs at me but she doesn't care much) but was worried her owner would think I was bashing up her precious filly (obviously I'd never do that, but she doesn't know me very well, and I think she thinks the filly is perfect and angelic as she lets her four year old in with her on her own! holy cow) but I think I'll have to after this afternoon! I'll be having a good long chat when her owner gets back, I'm so worried about the kids being round her after her behaviour today!

I know you said it's not possible to seperate them at feed time but is there no way you can bring your horse out of the field to feed? Just thinking that your boy will get all of his feed and the filly won't be filling up on extra food that might add to her energy levels?

Otherwise I agree with pansymouse carry a whip in the field to maintain personal space and get owner to get teeth checked asap. Really if the youngster is this wild the owner should be doing handling work with her to make sure she respects people especially if she's allowing you to share a field with her.

Unfortunately the paddock is at the back of the property and you have to walk through two fields containing five other horses to get to it, so I can't get him out without going through them. I could do it with the owner's help if she could try to keep the filly from getting past into the other paddocks which is a MASSIVE job, she just barges through as soon as you try to open the gate! I'd rather deal with the five large loose showjumpers than that one filly! but the owner never seems to be there and even though my mum would be willing, I worry about her too much to let her help. She'd get squished. I really only trust my boy with her as I know he's super gentle and has the best manners ever.

I've actually cut down my boy's feed a bit because of her, he's on conditioning supplements, vitamins and minerals and some herbs as he was very thin and poor when I got him a few months ago and he's still not quite what I'd like, but she's really very fat indeed and I'm worried about her getting ill from his rich feed so I've taken to keeping the richer parts in one bucket and having mum hold the bucket over the fence for him so he can get it down quicker, and putting the other half of his feed in another bucket, so hopefully all she can gobble is a bit of chaff. It's been quite the palaver!

Thanks for your help, guys

 

[hollyandivy123]

would it be possible to put up a temporary coral.........can just be some electric fencing which can be put across the corner and you can feed yours in there

a second she needs her teeth checked

 

[Palindrome]

I would tell the owner asap and record the filly's behaviour on your phone if possible (double barreling and biting particularly) if you think she won't believe you.
Perhaps it is possible to have a very small paddock/enclosed area set up in their paddock so you can feed your horse away from the filly or double gate the paddock to make sure she doesn't get through.

 

[twiggy2]

speak to the owner and who ever owns the filed, can you divide the field?
failing that, stop feeding in the field or even where she can see the food being eaten, carry a whip and yes beat her up if she comes at you 'both back barrels' never ever hit a horse that is attached to you (by leadrope/headcollar bridle etc) never hit a horse that is trying to work something out, but if a horse is lose and it has an option to come to you or stay away (so not cornered or in a small area), if it choses to come to you and go for you hit the blummin thing hard until it decides to move away.
If I was the owner of a horse in a shared field I would be blummin cross if someone else was feeding my horse

 

[sunnyone]

One of my mares was like this when, as a newly bought 3 year old she went out for the summer.I took a stick, as others have said, a quick smack as she charged past together with angry Nooooo! sorted her out. Noooo was enough within a month and I do not believe her actions were hormone related.
She never was a good catch but I could catch her by her tail if need be, with no fear of being kicked. Part of the secret is to make her associate your disapproval with her actions. For this to work it must be done within 4 seconds, thus you cannot, and should not, hit her repeatedly.

 

[twiggy2]

One of my mares was like this when, as a newly bought 3 year old she went out for the summer.I took a stick, as others have said, a quick smack as she charged past together with angry Nooooo! sorted her out. Noooo was enough within a month and I do not believe her actions were hormone related.
She never was a good catch but I could catch her by her tail if need be, with no fear of being kicked. Part of the secret is to make her associate your disapproval with her actions. For this to work it must be done within 4 seconds, thus you cannot, and should not, hit her repeatedly.

4 seconds is far too late any response has to be instant

 

[saltpetres]

would it be possible to put up a temporary coral.........can just be some electric fencing which can be put across the corner and you can feed yours in there

a second she needs her teeth checked

I'll check with the owner, good idea!

I would tell the owner asap and record the filly's behaviour on your phone if possible (double barreling and biting particularly) if you think she won't believe you.
Perhaps it is possible to have a very small paddock/enclosed area set up in their paddock so you can feed your horse away from the filly or double gate the paddock to make sure she doesn't get through.

Yes, good idea, I'll get my mum to video it tomorrow!

speak to the owner and who ever owns the filed, can you divide the field?
failing that, stop feeding in the field or even where she can see the food being eaten, carry a whip and yes beat her up if she comes at you 'both back barrels' never ever hit a horse that is attached to you (by leadrope/headcollar bridle etc) never hit a horse that is trying to work something out, but if a horse is lose and it has an option to come to you or stay away (so not cornered or in a small area), if it choses to come to you and go for you hit the blummin thing hard until it decides to move away.
If I was the owner of a horse in a shared field I would be blummin cross if someone else was feeding my horse

Yep it's a great big field, a few acres perhaps, I'm in no way threatening her or cornering her! I'm not even paying attention to her, I just want my own horse. She's got no reason to come to me, really, I don't think she's fussed on getting a pat - she'll tolerate it when she's calm though. I don't take treats or anything in, but maybe her owners do.

I've spoken to the owner about the feed, she has no problem whatsoever with the filly eating Charley's dinner! She sort of gave a can't be helped/shrug sort of impression, a "sorry she's eating all your feed" *smile*. I'M the one who is worried about the filly eating too much! The last welshie of her body type that I knew foundered very easily, so she's worrying me. I thought I'd just be able to hold her/walk her around while my lad was eating, or at least he'd protect his own food, but she's incredibly strong and exhausting to attempt to lead, I'm not sure she's ever been taught to lead actually? She just wants to bite or stomp on me. I can do it, but not for 40 minutes every day while Charley eats! He's a slowwwww eater. She's dangerous to keep away loose, she's aggressive towards me when there's no food at all involved, she'd probably actually try to kill me if I tried to keep her away from the feed while she was loose! But he needs his feed, I'm not sure what other option there is.

 

[saltpetres]

One of my mares was like this when, as a newly bought 3 year old she went out for the summer.I took a stick, as others have said, a quick smack as she charged past together with angry Nooooo! sorted her out. Noooo was enough within a month and I do not believe her actions were hormone related.
She never was a good catch but I could catch her by her tail if need be, with no fear of being kicked. Part of the secret is to make her associate your disapproval with her actions. For this to work it must be done within 4 seconds, thus you cannot, and should not, hit her repeatedly.

Hmm! Do you think in your mare's case that it was a lack of handling, or from poor/inconsistent maybe weak handling? I've never seen her owner actually handle horses, so I don't know what she's really like.