Aggressive horse dilema

[Acobandawelsh]

Hello, i am after some advice on a very agressive horse! Basically he's a 15.2hh cob and he is as wide as he is tall. My mum has known him for 10 years (he's 13) and owned him for 2 years. He belonged to her parents (my grandparents) who used to drive him most days and my mum would also ride him- never had a problem. However my grandad passed away 2 years ago and my mum had him and moved him a few fields down with her pony. Long story short she was getting on fine with him then a few times he started to get a bit funny and try to give the odd nip and then escalted to him doing it when she was brushing him and then when generally handling him he became rude. I live 2 hours away so rarely see him - but when i have been down in the past i can see he pulls her around and gets in her space and generally a bit of a bossy boots. Hes been getting away with things and because my mums not the most confident hes kind of taken over and thinks hes boss. The behaviour has now escalted to him full on ears back and swinging his bum and actually kicking out really aggressive if he doesn't want to do something, or striking put with his front legs. I have been over to help a couple of times and did a bit of ground work with him backing him up etc and he tried to bite me a few times. Ignored the behaviour and after a few mins he relaxed and was fine. My mum continued with the groundwork but he hasnt been listening to her, she hasn't ridden him for months as shes on her own and understandbly nervous of him. So i went down today and we wanted to try his saddle and i was going to ride him and basically give her a hand - once you are on hes really good, quiet and excellent in traffic and he goes out alone no problem. So i groomed him and he was okay - until he spotted the saddlecloth! My mum had hold of him and he lunged at us both ears back teeth barred and then swung around really quick and lashed out to kick! I instantly gave him a smack on the bum with the girth and managed to chase him back as he was lunging at us!!! We then had to give him food and only then when distracted we tried the saddle (we didn't ride as needs a shorter girth and checking over by saddler) he was fine, no aggression and we led him up the lane in his dually and was well behaved.
Naturally i am worried about the behaviour with my mum - shes 64 now and shes obviously wary of him and hes turned into this huge brute of a horse whos frankly dangerous!
If i could be there daily i am sure it would help with groundwork but i am 2 hours away with my kids and own horses etc......she had a "horse whisperer" in a while ago but honestly didnt do any good. Hes just really dominant, rude and aggressive. Hes so fat and wide too!! She can't keep him penned in on restricted grazing as he has zero respect for elecric fencing and will happily barge through the tall poly poles with 5 strands of tape!!
My mum loves this horse as he has a lot of sentiment with him being my grandads horse also we lost my dad (her husband) 6 months before my grandad so shes been through the mill - she called me up really upset the other day regarding a few other problems and shes having a bit of a time. Having the horse and riding was her thing to do to de-stress and relax but at the moment its the opposite.
I don't know what to suggest. Any ideas or words of wisdom?!

 

[DSB]

Please read my reply to a previous post.
Take Care

 

[Pearlsasinger]

She needs to get him checked over by a vet. I would suspect ulcers but there could be pain somewhere else,too.Really mum should have nipped the behaviour int he bud when it first started but the hrose is trying to tell her something and she isn't listening. Does he have equine company?

 

[Acobandawelsh]

Was it the post about the chickens?
If so yes....he is very aggressive.
I personally wouldn't keep a horse like him - biting is one thing but full on aggressive kicking is another
Its a hard one as my mum is so invested in him

 

[Acobandawelsh]

She needs to get him checked over by a vet. I would suspect ulcers but there could be pain somewhere else,too.Really mum should have nipped the behaviour int he bud when it first started but the hrose is trying to tell her something and she isn't listening. Does he have equine company?

Thats what i thought originally was ulcers - but now i am definitely leaning toward the fact that he knows he can get away with doing stuff by being aggressive. I agree she definitely should have nipped it in the bud when it first started- my grandad wouldn't have taken any of that behaviour from him. You jist have to watch the way he is with her - just pulling her about snatching the grass when shes leading him and getting in her space and being generally rude
Yes my mum has an older companion pony who is kept with him.
I think i will suggest to her about him being looked over by the vet just to rule anything out though ?

 

[Sossigpoker]

This horse needs to see the vet before any behaviour modifications start. This would be typical behaviour of a horse in pain or with neurological issues.
Yes some horses are pushy but to escalate to this level of aggression when this is not the norm indicates a medical problem in my experience.

 

[[153312]]

They are not this aggressive without reason. In your shoes i would be first and foremost scoping for ulcers, and back X rays and a pssm1 test. Has his management changed from when he was in your grandad's care to your mother's?
Whilst it's true that they can act out as a way of getting out of work it's also possible for firm handlers to push them through pain and if your mum is nervous, she may not be doing that, whereas your grandad perhaps did, hence the change in behaviour.

 

[Acobandawelsh]

I will have a chat to her tomorrow and suggest she give her vet a call for a chat. Thank you everyone for your input.
I hope we can get to the bottom.of it before someone gets seriously hurt!

Snail - No change really other than the fact he's worked a lot less than he used to be.
I will update soon

 

[Orangehorse]

Yes, I certainly agree that its a good idea to get him checked out by a vet since his behaviour has changed so much.

But I wouldn't be that surprised if nothing was found. A horse without leadership is a worried horse and will try to take over, which sounds as if this has happened, also cobs are very good at using their size and strength. I have seen the difference with handling between men and women. Men will often just assume that they are in charge and the horse does exactly what they want without question - and very often this is what happens. With women, who often want to be nice to the horse and especially if they feel slightly intimidated the horse finds themselves in an unfamilar place.

You, OP, are doing the right thing, you do the groundwork and put the horse in his place, literally, govern where his feet go.

I had friends who were horse dealers. They had everything from ponies to point-to-pointers and eventers, anything. They were sometimes called in to help with a horse that the owner couldn't manage and 9/10 they did not find a problem. They handled the animal with confidence and an expectation that it would behave, and mostly it did. If it didn't then there was likely a veterinary cause.

I think if you have the horse checked out, and find out if there is a problem or not and if it is fixable, then you need to have a serious discussion about the horse's future. You wouldn't want him to kick and seriously injure your mother.

 

[Jellymoon]

Oh gosh, I feel for you as being two hours away you can’t really do much to help. Your mum really doesn’t need this. Not to mention it puts her danger.
I don’t disagree it could be pain related, but it sounds to me like he’s completely got the better of her.
I wonder if it might be better to get a professional rider to look at him first? Or maybe get the vet out first, then the pro if they don’t find anything, either way, but I would def get her some professional help with this boy.

I think, tbh, if it were my mum I would tell her I’m going to take the horse to a professionals for a few weeks of schooling and an assessment. No arguments mum!
Then if he goes well there (be picky, ask around, get recommendations) you will know he’s just got very domineering with your mum. And at that point, you would be in a good position to find him a new home. Or the professional can help your mum keep on top of him going forward if she really wants to keep him.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

This horse needs to see the vet before any behaviour modifications start. This would be typical behaviour of a horse in pain or with neurological issues.
Yes some horses are pushy but to escalate to this level of aggression when this is not the norm indicates a medical problem in my experience.

^^ Agree with this. At the end of July this year my 10yo mare who'd always been a bit bullish on the ground but was dealable with if you were firm with her, escalated her behaviour to the degree that she became aggressive not just to the rest of the herd but also humans; she practically flattened the one person in the world she thought the most of (my friend).

She was a trigeminal head-shaker; also had a laminitis flare-up which meant she had to be confined and away from the herd, making her stressed and unhappy. Vet also suspected possible ulcers, probably early-onset arthritis, EMS, and so on. Basically it was a case of what she DIDN'T have........

This behaviour wasn't typical for her and it was very disturbing. We realised she was unhappy and in pain, more so than we had hitherto realised.

The decision was made - bearing in mind everything else that was happening for her - to euthanise.

Sorry can't be more hopeful - but sometimes horses are just "screaming" at you that they're in pain and/or unhappy.

Sometimes you can't "fix" everything either: for this mare investigations for the trigeminal headshaking alone would have cost in excess of £10,000 and that was before we'd even begun to think about treatment options (not that there are many, sadly, for this condition).

Personally I know what I would do with the horse described. I would urge whoever is responsible for it to firstly get the vet to make a thorough assessment ASAP; but at the end of the day - it might be that - bearing in mind the severity and dangerousness of the behaviour being displayed - that a tough decision might have to be made, and this should be made BEFORE somebody gets hurt.

Even if you actually found a reason for the pain - and were able to treat it - you'd still have the behaviour patterns which have sadly become ingrained now. This horse is dangerous, end of.

Sometimes there is just no other course of action that can be taken. Sorry......

 

[Getbackboys]

sounds like an unhappy pony with some health issues but nothing that shouldnt be hard to sort, do get the vets out, dont be nasty ie smack etc him, if he could talk he would, but he is trying his best to tell you something, it will work out be strong be positive let him know he can lean on you to make him well again.

dont always listen to the posters who go on about being dangerous and end its life etc etc, you will find those regularly on h&h posts surprisingly the same posters.

its takes a relationship between u and the horse, some work some dont, just because it is frustrated that you and your vet are not getting its message. someone else might be able to tune in who is not emotionally involved/attached to the horse. if you were close by i would certainly offer my time, i am not called Dr Doolittle for nothing, pm me if you like

 

[oldie48]

Although I would always want to have the vet out to check a horse that was aggressive, I also think that when horses change homes and routines they will start to test their boundaries, some much more than others. When this behaviour starts without a change in circumstances I'd be more concerned that it was pain related. Horses learn so much about us by just looking at how we stand, where we stand, how we handle them etc, it's what they do in a herd situation and it's what they do with us too. tbh I know a lot of horses that are bargy and bitey with their owners but behave well for experienced yard staff and i don't think it's all about experienced staff pushing them through pain sometimes it's just a case of a horse being reminded of his manners.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I will have a chat to her tomorrow and suggest she give her vet a call for a chat. Thank you everyone for your input.
I hope we can get to the bottom.of it before someone gets seriously hurt!

Snail - No change really other than the fact he's worked a lot less than he used to be.
I will update soon

Is he fed the same while being worked less? That could be at least a contributory reason for the bad behaviour. But yes, definitely a vet check first.

 

[Gloi]

Is there someone else around or is your mum alone with him? If she is I wouldn't be happy with the risk of him injuring her with nobody about. It sounds like they are not a good match and it would probably be better to re-home him.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Could you have the horse at yours for a few weeks to give him some tough love. Re-establish the boundaries from the ground on a daily basis. If he responds well then he could maybe return home where your Mum can make a supervised 'fresh start' and carry on where you left off.

 

[YorksG]

Op, what does your mother want to do about the horse?

 

[eahotson]

For me it would be Vet/Physio/saddle fitter first.If all that was clear I would think the horse had to go one way or another before your mother gets injured.I must admit I have known bolshy horses but never down right aggressive ones.Perhaps I have been lucky.

 

[Widgeon]

I've not got any new suggestions about how to actually resolve this but is he shod? If so, if he can manage without them (sounds like he's not in much work), I would be seriously considering taking shoes off for now. And does your mum always wear a hat and gloves when she's handling him? Just thinking about immediate solutions for damage limitation, were he to catch her with a kick. It sounds fairly nightmarish for all you, very best wishes with getting to the bottom of whatever's going on.