Aggressive horse, is it training or is there an issue?

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Eldolily

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Hello!
I have a 5yo gelding which is my whole world but is also causing me a lot of trouble.
I got him when he was 1 and a half yo, he was almost completely untouched and not gelded. He almost immediately started showing signs of stallion/dominant behavior, rearing and trying to mount everything that was moving, so I got him gelded straight away. He improved, but always remained a rather “dominant” (I don’t necessary like this word but I think it’s esplicative) and pushy horse, and I always struggled to deal with him but somehow managed. I brought him to a trainer but I didn’t like his methods, to I brought him back after 3 months. In the years, I learned to read him and could work with him a bit but he never really saw me as a trustworthy leader. 6 months ago I moved abroad with him to a training stable. Me and the owner of the place ( a professional and experienced trainer) have been working with him a lot and he did progress a lot, despite still being a difficult horse. He recently got treated for suspected ulcers as he was showing possible ulcer signs (including not being willing to go forward). Yesterday we had a training session in which we pushed him a bit as he was not reacting very well to us asking for canter. We never ever hit him or anything like that. After that, it’s like something triggered him. He started being extremely aggressive and defensive of his space and body. He usually likes to be scratched and groomed and enjoys my company in his paddock, now he chases me away as soon as I get even close to the gate, tries to aggressively bite if we try to blanket him, and is just clearly upset and to my feeling somehow in pain.
It’s only been less than 48 hours since this has started but since it’s just the cherry on top of a series of behaviors I’ve been trying to eradicate for more than 3 years, and since I’m running out of options, I would like to know what people think. Is this likely a behavioral issues or is there (as I suspect) something else that might be going on? If so, what could that be that had such a sudden effect, could it just be something that has already been there since the beginning and that has been somehow strongly exacerbated by something yesterday? What would you test him for if that was your horse?
I recently had an osteopath checking him and she found nothing except for a blocked diaphragm which could have been related to ulcers.
Thanks for your help!!
 
first up if he's being aggressive please make sure you stay safe - don't handle him alone and wear a hat and thick/sturdy boots and clothes and use a bridle to lead if necessary.

If he was mine I'd blood test for hormones (epecially testosterone) and an ACTH and T4 stim - PPID is associated with 'old' horses but >75% over the age of 15 have it, so it's fair to say some percentage of younger ones do too, and it can manifest as aggression. I'd also run general panels for liver, kidney etc and probably do an elimination diet (so just feed hay) and ask the vet about options for hind gut ulcer treatment if he is still aggressive and uncomfortable after treatment for gastric ulcers, especially as you mentioned moving to a different country with him which would affect the gut microbiome substantially.
You don't mention breed but some breeds can be genetically predisposed to disorders like muscle myopathies/PSSM which can cause aggression. But usually there would be other symptoms too.
It's a hard one because fundamentally any pain, anywhere, can make a horse aggressive as they feel vulnerable.
Good luck and thank you for listening to your horse, I hope you can get to the bottom of it.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
first up if he's being aggressive please make sure you stay safe - don't handle him alone and wear a hat and thick/sturdy boots and clothes and use a bridle to lead if necessary.

If he was mine I'd blood test for hormones (epecially testosterone) and an ACTH and T4 stim - PPID is associated with 'old' horses but >75% over the age of 15 have it, so it's fair to say some percentage of younger ones do too, and it can manifest as aggression. I'd also run general panels for liver, kidney etc and probably do an elimination diet (so just feed hay) and ask the vet about options for hind gut ulcer treatment if he is still aggressive and uncomfortable after treatment for gastric ulcers, especially as you mentioned moving to a different country with him which would affect the gut microbiome substantially.
You don't mention breed but some breeds can be genetically predisposed to disorders like muscle myopathies/PSSM which can cause aggression. But usually there would be other symptoms too.
It's a hard one because fundamentally any pain, anywhere, can make a horse aggressive as they feel vulnerable.
Good luck and thank you for listening to your horse, I hope you can get to the bottom of it.
Click to expand...
Thank you, these are very nice tips!!! He’s a Spanish horse
 
FieldOrnaments said:
first up if he's being aggressive please make sure you stay safe - don't handle him alone and wear a hat and thick/sturdy boots and clothes and use a bridle to lead if necessary.

If he was mine I'd blood test for hormones (epecially testosterone) and an ACTH and T4 stim - PPID is associated with 'old' horses but >75% over the age of 15 have it, so it's fair to say some percentage of younger ones do too, and it can manifest as aggression. I'd also run general panels for liver, kidney etc and probably do an elimination diet (so just feed hay) and ask the vet about options for hind gut ulcer treatment if he is still aggressive and uncomfortable after treatment for gastric ulcers, especially as you mentioned moving to a different country with him which would affect the gut microbiome substantially.
You don't mention breed but some breeds can be genetically predisposed to disorders like muscle myopathies/PSSM which can cause aggression. But usually there would be other symptoms too.
It's a hard one because fundamentally any pain, anywhere, can make a horse aggressive as they feel vulnerable.
Good luck and thank you for listening to your horse, I hope you can get to the bottom of it.
Click to expand...
Thank you, these are very nice tips!!!
SEL said:
My Appy was going to be shot as a 4yo for aggressive behaviours. She had been an orphan foal but her main issue was muscular pain - Pssm1.

She's not very nice to be around at the moment because the damp weather is causing issues so with her it's definitely discomfort.
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Oh damn! I never thought about PSSM but now I’m starting to consider testing him. Should she be aggressive randomly or in specific situations?
 
There are some really good Steve Young videos on YouTube about this kind of horse. Worth following as well even if an issue as good behaviour is essential if needing to be treated by humans.
 
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Eldolily said:
Thank you, these are very nice tips!!! He’s a Spanish horse
Click to expand...
This is interesting, are you in Spain? Spanish horses if they feel you don't know what you are doing will decide that they will take charge which can make them aggressive/ dominant.

If he has the okay from a veterinary point of view then I would try and find a trainer that has experience in Iberian horses that can help you.
 
Hi Eldolily, what an interesting horse you have! I like that you said you 'learned to read him', and I would be curious to know more about that. You also pointed out that 'he never really saw me as a trustworthy leader'. I wonder whether you could do something with your 'reading' – maybe there's a different interpretation, or different wording that would help. I use Sharon Wilsie's Horse Speak which has a much larger vocabulary. For example, she gives a large range of 'roles' that a horse might try to adopt to fit in with his herd, and if your horse was hoping to be the protector, for example, then maybe he can't allow himself to give it up until a) he is recognised as trying to be that, and b) he is confident enough in you as a "good enough protector" in your turn. This would suggest that 'protection and safety messages' could help. I've heard of many examples where just doing the right routine with protection messages resolves a lot of misunderstandings. I know that some vets and other people who turn up to do a specific job with a horse (i.e. without the luxury of building a relationship over time) simply 'secure the boundary' and 'blow away the bogey-men' and that's enough for them to get on with the job. So, I think you are on the right track with trying to read him––we humans know how satisfied we feel when we feel "well read," recognised, or understood. Good luck!
 
We bred a filly a few years ago had her from birth and she was aggressive from day 1.

She came out with a strong fight instinct it was her first reaction to everything.

She also was very opinionated and to this day still a nightmare I wouldn't trust around many
 
MissMay said:
We bred a filly a few years ago had her from birth and she was aggressive from day 1.

She came out with a strong fight instinct it was her first reaction to everything.

She also was very opinionated and to this day still a nightmare I wouldn't trust around many
Click to expand...
I knew of one like that. Everyone said pain related foulness when she was older but the fact was she was like it from day 1, as was her mother.
She foaled inside overnight and the yard I worked at was told to get them out as soon as possible after foaling because the mare would kill the foal :oops: They were fine once out, as in mum looked after the foal. She'd still be vile to people.

Classis "wtf did you breed from that"

Edited to say that comment wasn't aimed at anyone other than the people who intentionally bred from the mare i knew!
 
Ours are all being HORRID in the field at the min, as the grass isn't as good they're all grouchy (kicking biting over whos coming out the field)! When they come in they will be in a better routine and settle down again. Sounds like you've got ongoing issues but could potentially be contributing
 
poiuytrewq said:
I knew of one like that. Everyone said pain related foulness when she was older but the fact was she was like it from day 1, as was her mother.
She foaled inside overnight and the yard I worked at was told to get them out as soon as possible after foaling because the mare would kill the foal :oops: They were fine once out, as in mum looked after the foal. She'd still be vile to people.

Classis "wtf did you breed from that"

Edited to say that comment wasn't aimed at anyone other than the people who intentionally bred from the mare i knew!
Click to expand...

We had a vile mare who passed on her horrible attitude to filly foal, but never colts. We stopped breeding from her and sent her out on loan as a riding pony. They renamed her 'the duchess' as everything had to be done on her terms to avoid violence! taught a lot of kids to behave on their yard and was a perfect pony under saddle.

This pony was so vile she was stolen and return 2 weeks later!

OP - please take care of yourself while handling him until you get to the bottom of the issues. As mentioned above Steve Young has some helpful videos as he still needs to be handled even if he is in pain. If he wasn't willing to go in to canter could he still have ulcer issue or whatever caused the ulcers hasn't been resolved? pushing him to do something he is reluctant to do may have exasperated whatever was causing this issue in the first place. Can he have a pain/loss of performance work up with the vet? With his current reactions it may be easier to find the problem as he's no longer able to mask it.
 
dorsetladette said:
We had a vile mare who passed on her horrible attitude to filly foal, but never colts. We stopped breeding from her and sent her out on loan as a riding pony. They renamed her 'the duchess' as everything had to be done on her terms to avoid violence! taught a lot of kids to behave on their yard and was a perfect pony under saddle.

This pony was so vile she was stolen and return 2 weeks later!

OP - please take care of yourself while handling him until you get to the bottom of the issues. As mentioned above Steve Young has some helpful videos as he still needs to be handled even if he is in pain. If he wasn't willing to go in to canter could he still have ulcer issue or whatever caused the ulcers hasn't been resolved? pushing him to do something he is reluctant to do may have exasperated whatever was causing this issue in the first place. Can he have a pain/loss of performance work up with the vet? With his current reactions it may be easier to find the problem as he's no longer able to mask it.
Click to expand...
Ours also passed onto fillies only.. the first we thought was a fluke after several lovely colts but stopped breeding when we realised her fillies were dangerously untrustworthy.
Ie you could be grooming/ hand grazing/ minding your own business and next thing a flying hood would come out of nowhere or a snake bite. They chased everyone out of the field and you never let them between you and an exit.

Funny cause the colts are all dope on a rope anyone could ride and the mare herself was a bit odd but not aggressive she didn't really bond with other horses and would often be found alone quite happy. She was very ambivalent to being ridden just got on with it. Whatever hormones she passed down her female line though were spicy!
 
LEC said:
There are some really good Steve Young videos on YouTube about this kind of horse. Worth following as well even if an issue as good behaviour is essential if needing to be treated by humans.
Click to expand...
Yeah I think I already watched almost every single video by him😂
 
shortstuff99 said:
This is interesting, are you in Spain? Spanish horses if they feel you don't know what you are doing will decide that they will take charge which can make them aggressive/ dominant.

If he has the okay from a veterinary point of view then I would try and find a trainer that has experience in Iberian horses that can help you.
Click to expand...
I’m in the Netherlands, yes I totally agree on that, and I am working with a trainer. It’s better with her but still a very strong character and not a piece of cake to work with, but the aggression outburst of the last couple of days is a new thing, he just won’t let anybody touch him while he’s usually a pretty cuddly horse
 
JHOnTheHoof said:
Hi Eldolily, what an interesting horse you have! I like that you said you 'learned to read him', and I would be curious to know more about that. You also pointed out that 'he never really saw me as a trustworthy leader'. I wonder whether you could do something with your 'reading' – maybe there's a different interpretation, or different wording that would help. I use Sharon Wilsie's Horse Speak which has a much larger vocabulary. For example, she gives a large range of 'roles' that a horse might try to adopt to fit in with his herd, and if your horse was hoping to be the protector, for example, then maybe he can't allow himself to give it up until a) he is recognised as trying to be that, and b) he is confident enough in you as a "good enough protector" in your turn. This would suggest that 'protection and safety messages' could help. I've heard of many examples where just doing the right routine with protection messages resolves a lot of misunderstandings. I know that some vets and other people who turn up to do a specific job with a horse (i.e. without the luxury of building a relationship over time) simply 'secure the boundary' and 'blow away the bogey-men' and that's enough for them to get on with the job. So, I think you are on the right track with trying to read him––we humans know how satisfied we feel when we feel "well read," recognised, or understood. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Thanks! I’ll try to get my hands on that book. With “learnt to read him” I meant that I learnt to understand what he’s fine with and what he doesn’t like, but I’m still learning how to present myself and communicate with him better to make him feel like he can trust me and follow me
 
MissMay said:
We bred a filly a few years ago had her from birth and she was aggressive from day 1.

She came out with a strong fight instinct it was her first reaction to everything.

She also was very opinionated and to this day still a nightmare I wouldn't trust around many
Click to expand...
Sounds like him! What did you do to make it better?
 
dorsetladette said:
We had a vile mare who passed on her horrible attitude to filly foal, but never colts. We stopped breeding from her and sent her out on loan as a riding pony. They renamed her 'the duchess' as everything had to be done on her terms to avoid violence! taught a lot of kids to behave on their yard and was a perfect pony under saddle.

This pony was so vile she was stolen and return 2 weeks later!

OP - please take care of yourself while handling him until you get to the bottom of the issues. As mentioned above Steve Young has some helpful videos as he still needs to be handled even if he is in pain. If he wasn't willing to go in to canter could he still have ulcer issue or whatever caused the ulcers hasn't been resolved? pushing him to do something he is reluctant to do may have exasperated whatever was causing this issue in the first place. Can he have a pain/loss of performance work up with the vet? With his current reactions it may be easier to find the problem as he's no longer able to mask it.
Click to expand...
The pony who was stolen and returned made me laugh quite a lot, and I have to thank you as I needed that 😂
Yes I’m running all the tests I can arrange (and afford)!
 
Amymay Again said:
You'll get lots of advice about possible medical issues, training and handling solutions and management etc. But some animals just aren't very nice.
Click to expand...
I had a foal from four months, weaned early because the mares condition was a welfare issue, was just a little sh!t sometimes consistantly all his life for no reason. Wouldn't want to kill you but just unpredictable, and in the wrong hands would have been a problem.
I would go for a reset, just to check if what he is not reacting to what he sees as pressure, turnout with an older doesn't give a sh1t companion, so he doesn't have to defend himself and break the pattern while you work out if its health related.
Some horses have good memories for negaitive experiences, so even if he doesn't look in pain he may anticipating pain, and tie that to you. As a handler I always think the best reaction is no reaction, while keeping them out of your personal space, making each step small so their is less likely to be failure, and so as they 'get it' leave it, and avoid confrontation.
I have to manage most the time on my own, they know to keep out of my space, a lot of the time they are moved just by following me, once you have a 'ring leader', and you can manage them the rest just learn to trust your judgement. When you buy in a horse they have no social systen to support them, they have to make all their own choices, and if they have not seen humanes as a positive experience, they can only make their choices based on that, you have to make a situation where chosing you is a positive.
 
Eldolily said:
Yes, it’s almost always been an issue in the past 2 years. Was not that bad during the first year I’ve had him
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I would include - if not already in your plan which it may well be - a discussion about having an assessment/x-rays of his neck and back, but particularly his neck. There may be a soft tissue issue, but equally there may be a skeletal issue. The horse has to 'give' alot with his neck to make the transition from trot into canter, and then once in the canter the neck moves alot in relation to the body - in trot the neck is relatively still in comparison. Reluctance to canter in particular always raises concerns over the neck for me, but in reality it can be anywhere in the body if there is a general reluctance to go forward, especially if the issue has been consistent - and I'd say 2 years is pretty consistent.

There's always a reason for a horse feeling negative - however that negativity is expressed. I fully agree with other comments which focus on the positivity he feels when working and the rapport between you, but it seems like there could definitely be an underlying physical cause.

The last two days do sound like they're linked to the training session when he was 'pressed' more - it could easily be him feeling the need to protect his body more because 'I thought you understood', or 'I thought I could trust you with my body', or 'You made me hurt more'.

If they have longstanding issues they generally learn to cope around them as best they can, as long as they can stay within limits of protection which they set up (which to a person looking at them can be interpreted as 'It's just how he is'), but pressing them outside of those limitations can aggravate and re-activate things quite considerably.

Wishing you the best of luck with your boy, sounds like he has a good and understanding person advocating for him ❤️.
 
We just basically learnt to live with them.
We knew it wasn't pain as it was since birth and always the same reaction never an escalation

Lived put 24/7 irish bred good doer stable herd.
We sold with full disclosure but they were very well bred and talented so going to the type of owner who doesn't mind taking one with quirks and attitude once the skill is there
 
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