agression in the field

[ISHdaft]

Been having some problems with my mare recently it seems like we fix one problen and another on appears... it started with napping and threatening to rear while riding then moved to biting when tacking up (she sometines nips when in season being girthed) next it was biting in the stable last time she done it she flicked with the end of a lead rope and hasnt done it since. Now she is displaying since of dominance in the field pinning her ears back and literally charging at me and occasionally trying to turn to kick out which is really out of character for her. My parents (non horsey people) are wanting me to sell her if she continues to do this as its dangerous but id rather fix a problem than replace it.

She is also doing the same thing with my boyfriend and friend however gives up a bit easier with my friend who is more experianced.

Once she is caught she goes back to her usual sweet self but i really cant stand the field behaviour.

Would really appricuate any tips on how to correct it ect

thanks in advance xx

 

[Brightbay]

Your mare is telling you something is wrong. She can't speak, can only communicate by actions, and every time you shut her up, she has to think of another way to get the message across. She started off telling you there was a problem with new behaviour when being ridden. When behaviour changes in a horse, there is a reason and it is usually a communication of pain or discomfort.

You "dealt with" the behaviour by telling your mare you would not listen. So since she realised she would be told off or ignored for telling you during riding, she looked for another way to tell you there was a problem. She identified that she could communicate when the signs she was *about to be ridden* happened, by nipping or threatening to nip when being tacked up. Not only did you ignore this, you punished her attempt to communicate. She now views you as both someone whose presence is associated with discomfort (being tacked up and ridden) but also as someone - from her point of view - who attacks her for reasons she doesn't understand.

So now she sees you coming in the field, and makes a preemptive strike to try to get you to go away.

This is a very common pattern. It is nothing to do with "dominance" and everything to do with a lack of understanding of how horses communicate their discomfort and anxiety.

Deal with the thing she has been telling you is the problem from day one, and you can then start to rebuild the bridges in terms of two way communication.

I don't know exactly what the problem is likely to be - it could be digestive discomfort or ulcers, which can sometimes start to show up in ridden work and which are often evident in how the horse responds to being tacked up. It could also be saddle fit, back problems, hoof/joint problems or teeth - worth getting all of these checked out.

In the meantime, be calm, non-confrontational - your mare (from her point of view) is not being aggressive, but is defending herself from what she perceives as a threat to her safety and comfort.

 

[Shay]

Brightbay might have come across a little harsh - but is essentially right. You need to get back, teeth and tack checked, if that comes out blank ask a vet to examine her to see if there are any other reasons why she might be in pain. There are other reasons for this type of behavior - but you must eliminate pain first.

Whilst you wait to get all that organized stop ridden work and do ground work with her. If she isn't in pain she might be trying to say that she doesn't feel safe and feels she has to lead. So you need to re-build that trust between you so she can feel safe and accept leadership from you. You might need an instructor to help you do that.

When you go to catch her just at the moment take a treat and stop outside her circle. Wait for her to come to you. It might be worth just going out to her to talk to her, give her a scratch and a treat and just let her go again - so she gets the idea that you don't only catch her to ride.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

When a normally sweet horse, with the same owner, in the same home acts out of character in the way that you describe there is a very strong likelihood that pain is at the root of the change.

 

[ISHdaft]

Already considered pain as the cause and had everything checked over... so its not pain causing it

Like i say its dominant behaviour shes treating me like one of the herd

I was looking for advise on helping resolve the issue as in tips on how to approach her ect

 

[ISHdaft]

Pain has been eliminated...
ive been trying to let her come over but its like the moment she clocks anyone anywhere near her shes pinning her ears back and lunging at then or thrying to spin and kick out.
I did try taking treats with me and leaving the head collar behind but no joy as of yet...

just need to persever and take my time with her i guess like i say she is a really sweet mare and its out of character pain was my first though

 

[amandap]

Been having some problems with my mare recently it seems like we fix one problen and another on appears... it started with napping and threatening to rear while riding then moved to biting when tacking up (she sometines nips when in season being girthed) next it was biting in the stable last time she done it she flicked with the end of a lead rope and hasnt done it since. Now she is displaying since of dominance in the field pinning her ears back and literally charging at me and occasionally trying to turn to kick out which is really out of character for her. My parents (non horsey people) are wanting me to sell her if she continues to do this as its dangerous but id rather fix a problem than replace it.

She is also doing the same thing with my boyfriend and friend however gives up a bit easier with my friend who is more experianced.

Once she is caught she goes back to her usual sweet self but i really cant stand the field behaviour.

Would really appricuate any tips on how to correct it ect

thanks in advance xx

These are signs of gut/gastric discomfort which may also be shown by resistance when ridden and appearing bad tempered or distracted, after all, we feel grumpy and want to protect ourselves when in discomfort. I do agree with BB, horses are not naturally aggressive to humans and the root is likely to be discomfort which is treated as purely behavioural. Look up gastric ulcers and hindgut acidosis along with other checks.

ps. We can become associated with somethig unpleasant for eg. if a horse has gut pain and when we girth cause discomfort the we can become someone to avoid/keep away from.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Already considered pain as the cause and had everything checked over... so its not pain causing it

Or you haven't identified it yet.

Did the check include a bute trial, x-rays/scans/thermal imaging and scoping for ulcers? Even if it did, that still wouldn't rule out all pain as some causes of pain don't respond to bute, x-rays/scans don't show everything and hind gut ulcers don't show on a scope.

My friend's horse had all the usual checks teeth/back/saddle and passed all three. Several months later (and a lot of 'corrective' shoeing for navicular which was incorrectly diagnosed) a different saddler checked his saddle and the problem had been the saddle all along.

 

[Brightbay]

Already considered pain as the cause and had everything checked over... so its not pain causing it

Like i say its dominant behaviour shes treating me like one of the herd

I was looking for advise on helping resolve the issue as in tips on how to approach her ect

There is only so much that can be seen on a check. If I had a stonking headache and went to the doctor, how likely is it, do you think, that the doctor would know I was in pain and that the pain was originating from my head... if I wasn't able to tell her? There are many sources of pain and discomfort that are not apparent to a vet, especially as the horse can't speak, they can only indicate their issues through their behaviour.

You say it's "dominant behaviour treating you like one of the herd". Really? Does your horse chase off every single other horse, every single time they approach her? "Dominant behaviour" is a label used by people who don't actually know much about horse behaviour at all, since it's almost always used incorrectly. A normal herd of horses coexists peacefully, apart from occasional very low key disputes over specific things that are in short supply - feed, mares, sometimes water. Can you explain which of these your mare believes you have that she can obtain? If none, then her behaviour is not dominant but defensive - she is driving you off because she sees you as a potential source of pain, fear or discomfort.

Many people seem to *want* to think it's dominant behaviour, since this gives them the green light to just override anything the horse is trying to communicate, and just get on with doing whatever the pesky horse is preventing.
You have had a series of replies pointing out that in the context you describe, it is likely to be a result of pain/fear/discomfort, but you keep asking, hoping that someone will agree with you. THat's not how forums work, I'm afraid. You ask the question, and the answer may not be one you want to hear. Your choice is to continue to listen to whoever has told you "it's just dominance", or to maybe think again, since you've had a series of alternative suggestions from a group of unconnected people who have nothing to gain by offering you advice. It's up to you - for the sake of the mare who's shouting "help" as loud as she can, I do hope you find a solution.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

You need to address if there is pain involved by calling vet to examine her for any physical or mental problem.

If vet says nothing then you have to be firm with her tell her off firmly by what ever means you see fit to impose.

We had a livery here that was like that, it had no pain it was just bad tempered with certain things, turning round to bite you when grooming, rug changing etc. I clenched my fist and got it on the chin once then after that it would only see my fist and refrain from biting, same with when it raised its leg to kick.

Sometimes horses with such behaviour you have to use otherwise frowned on actions.
I will not tolerate bad behaviour when in my presence, they are only in human space for an hour - two hours a day and there is no excuse not to behave in a respectful way, they have 22+ hours to do what they want, but when they are in my time I want good behaviour.

None of this walking round or walking off while your trying to put boots on or off. Barging forward to leans over the door while your trying to do front buckles up.

I use firm voice followed on by a smack or have used a jumping whip as a method in the past as a follow up(shock gasp some would think) I use it flat on the skin not belting it.

Some use the wavy hand /arm method which when they come at you you wave your arms and hands like a rearing horse would and it shows your a dominant horse. You then watch while they back away thus giving you respect. I have seen this done at one yard so it can / does work. You must not practice this alone though.

 

[amandap]

We had a livery here that was like that, it had no pain it was just bad tempered with certain things, turning round to bite you when grooming, rug changing etc. I clenched my fist and got it on the chin once then after that it would only see my fist and refrain from biting, same with when it raised its leg to kick.

These are also signs of gut or other discomfort. To be blunt, would you like a fist on the chin if you complained you were feeling ill or sore or saying "don't touch me there" or "be careful, because I'm sore" and were ignored? You might shut up but you would still be feeling crap and now also feel cross with whoever fisted you!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

These are also signs of gut or other discomfort. To be blunt, would you like a fist on the chin if you complained you were feeling ill or sore or saying "don't touch me there" or "be careful, because I'm sore" and were ignored? You might shut up but you would still be feeling crap and now also feel cross with whoever fisted you!

I have already said once the vet has dismissed all options of pain then move to next step.


the horse described above was just mean spirited, you were not there nor do you know the horse in question. The horse was aggressive pure and simple. You cannot fluffy coat all situations.............

The owner never told it off when it bit her or kicked her, she just said "oh you naughty boy don't do that". I am not standing there with a risk of being put out of action by a kick/ bite or worst by someones mean horse. Sorry but in real life you have to asses each situation when you are in it not from the outside through words in computer.

To be blunt this bloody horse also attacked the sharer in the stable double barreling her 8 times before the sharer was rescued. A few minutes longer and we would have a dead sharer here, so no there was no pain involved the horse just backed her into corner and started on her. A horse who deliberately backs up reversing back moving in your direction even if you change yours it changes his to pin you then double barrel you over and over is not a horse who is just warning once or twice when you touch a certain place

There are many types of facial aggression in horses, after 47+ years around horses I can tell the difference.

 

[amandap]

I have already said once the vet has dismissed all options of pain then move to next step.


the horse described above was just mean spirited, you were not there nor do you know the horse in question. The horse was aggressive pure and simple. You cannot fluffy coat all situations.............

To be blunt this bloody horse also attacked the sharer in the stable double barreling her 8 times before the groom was rescued. A few minutes longer and we would have a dead groom here, so no there was no pain involved the horse just backed her into corner and started on her.

How many times had the groom or others fisted (or similar) the horse over time for threatening to bite etc? Of course I don't know the situation or the horse but it could be the scenario Brightbay describes of escalating aggressive behaviour due to a horses' behaviour being ignored and punished. Eventually we would all snap! If the horses' behaviour is seen as a complaint/communication rather than being awkward perhaps things could be nipped in the bud? If a horse is truly born nasty then perhaps it should have been pts as a foal? I believe domestic horses are mostly the product of our management and handling, I don't see that as "fluffy" but realisitic.

 

[Fides]

OP - has the vet rules out ulcers? It very much sounds like an ulcer related issue.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Already considered pain as the cause and had everything checked over... so its not pain causing it

Like i say its dominant behaviour shes treating me like one of the herd

I was looking for advise on helping resolve the issue as in tips on how to approach her ect

Did you say she is good with an experienced friend, if so then there lies a solution.
If you cant get this sorted you need to give up, find a good home for her.
No one can give tips without being on site.
I had a boy who suddenly had behavioral problems [and I have had horses for 50 years], I knewwhen I first met him he was difficult though he appeared to be a normal horse, he was a normal horse as long as his lifestyle suited him.
This was one horse, of several hundreds over 50 years, so I consider he was very much unusual.
Most horses I have seen who have "bad manners" or I have been asked to sort out have been normal.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

How many times had the groom or others fisted (or similar) the horse over time for threatening to bite etc?

NEVER EVER.

They were against raising a hand or voice to the horse. It was always my sweety boy my darling etc.

She had told me the horse was always like this.

Oh and it was never a threat it was always followed on by bite. It never warned just did it, the owner bred it herself

There are horses out there with aggression, like Mac who would lunge at you as you went near the door and whose haynet had to be between you and him or he would get you and had to run out the door and would only let one person in there. This was way back in 79, so have seen his aggression towards other horses too.
As I said you have to be in the situation and read the signs and act accordingly.

 

[amandap]

NEVER EVER.

They were against raising a hand or voice to the horse. It was always my sweety boy my darling etc.

She had told me the horse was always like this.

Oh and it was never a threat it was always followed on by bite. It never warned just did it, the owner bred it herself

There are horses out there with aggression, like Mac who would lunge at you as you went near the door and whose haynet had to be between you and him or he would get you and had to run out the door and would only let one person in there. This was way back in 79, so have seen his aggression towards other horses too.
As I said you have to be in the situation and read the signs and act accordingly.

Horses quickly learn that biting or threatening works to get humans away or to shut up and put up through fear of reprisal. No rules training or inconsistent handling/training can cause these issues as well I believe but there could still be a physical component as stress is a major cause of ulcers etc. They are more often frustration or defensive though. You don't have to be harsh to be consistent.
Once these bahaviours are established it takes careful planning to retrain.

Aggression round food is a common problem but can be sorted with an individual plan.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Horses quickly learn that biting or threatening works to get humans away or to shut up and put up through fear of reprisal. No rules training or inconsistent handling/training can cause these issues as well I believe but there could still be a physical component as stress is a major cause of ulcers etc. They are more often frustration or defensive though. You don't have to be harsh to be consistent.
Once these bahaviours are established it takes careful planning to retrain.

Aggression round food is a common problem but can be sorted with an individual plan.

We will have to agree to disagree on this subject, I have been around horses long enough and since 1965 seen enough horses where normal respect is not given by individuals.

I want respect and do what I see is correct for each individual case, horses are to big and strong to walk over and through us.

I will use my judgement to make sure all the liveries and horses are safe and given the respect they deserve.
I will not put liveries and staff at risk when we have a horse come in for a short time who's behaviour is not normal and has NOT got any pain or ulcers or any other issue you would like to say could be causing it.


If we label any action a horse makes towards us which we take as a veterinary problem, we would have the vet out 3 - 9 times a day.

There are situations and circumstances where it is not a vet issue

No excuse can justify a horse who has abnormally bad behaviour - aggression.

That is worlds apart from horses who are normally sweet but have an pain or neurological or medical problem causing random behavioral issues.

Random behaviour or abnormal behaviour is different to permanent aggression.

That is my end on this subject......................... adieu

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I bought a horse from someone who was frightened of her. The mare threatened/bit when being tacked up, so the owner always put the bridle on first and fastened the noseband, with the horse tied up quite short.
When I got her home (complete with her tack) I found that her browband was too short and was pinching her ears. I changed her bridle and taught her that tacking up was a pleasant experience. Months later, after being on a diet, she started moving away from the mounting block when I went to get on, I realised that her saddle no longer fitted because she had changed shape. When her saddle was changed she started standing properly again.
Years ago, I had a VERY difficult horse, who underneath was very sweet. Eventually we found that she was extremely sensitive to cereals and sugar. When we stopped feeding those, she reverted to her normal sweet self in about a week.

I could have just bullied these two horses into behaving as I wanted (which might not have been so easy with the food sensitive one) but surely it was far better to work out what the problems were and deal with them to make the horse more comfortable.

OP, I would do exhaustive checks and get 2nd opinions before being certain that this horse is not in pain.

 

[fburton]

"Dominant behaviour" is a label used by people who don't actually know much about horse behaviour at all, since it's almost always used incorrectly.

I agree, but can we get to the bottom of why "dominance" is so often used to explain the kind of behaviour described by OP?

What do people think is motivating the horse to show aggression when they say the horse is "dominant"? It seems to me there has to be some reason for the aggression. In the case of "dominance", what is assumed to be the underlying cause?

It's important we don't ascribe the wrong reason for a behaviour, because that can affect how we deal with the problem.

 

[oldie48]

Interesting thread with some strong views! Actually, I'm rather more down the middle on this, if the horse is better behaved with a more experienced person, i'm inclined to think that it's not pain related (but obviously, this must be checked out) I know a mare, very talented and competing at a very high level, who is only handled by experienced people who know her. She can be very territorial in her stable and bargy and bolshy out of it. Out in a herd, no doubt she'd be the dominant mare. She's always been difficult to handle and it's definitely not pain related, she's just a very talented, rather opinionated mare. Another mare arrived with impeccable manners but over time her owner found her increasingly difficult but with an experienced person, she was a fine, although she would try it on from time to time. Horses are great at reading body language and judging where they stand with you and frankly, i think there are some horses who will test boundaries and if they don't get pulled up about it, then they try a bit more. If you look at things from a horse's point of view, they are designed to conserve energy in case they have to run away from a predator, why work for a boss you don't respect and see as lower down the pecking order. Sorry this is really long winded but provided the owner is really confident that the issues are not pain related, then some good training in handling the horse could make a huge difference to her. AND it isn't about shouting, smacking and punching but it is about assertive body language and confidence. Good luck, I hope you get it sorted.

 

[amandap]

I agree, but can we get to the bottom of why "dominance" is so often used to explain the kind of behaviour described by OP?

What do people think is motivating the horse to show aggression when they say the horse is "dominant"? It seems to me there has to be some reason for the aggression. In the case of "dominance", what is assumed to be the underlying cause?

It's important we don't ascribe the wrong reason for a behaviour, because that can affect how we deal with the problem.

I don't know what a horses' motivation is when desribed as being purely dominant towards humans. Control the human? Get it's own way?

I agree it is important how we see behaviour as that does lead to how we handle it. If we see a horse as trying to control us or get its own way because it wants to dominate us, then that leaves few options for resolving the situation and disregards any problem the horse may have with us humans and it's life. If we see aggression as a behavioural problem with probable multiple factors leading to it then we have to look at all aspects of the horses' life not just asserting our dominance.

I am not saying we need to get a vet every five minutes but I do think physical and lifestyle factors are too often dismissed..

 

[Meowy Catkin]

if the horse is better behaved with a more experienced person, i'm inclined to think that it's not pain related

I've seen this several times when the problem did turn out to be pain.

I don't know if it's because the more experienced person can make the horse work despite the pain, or their riding is easier for the horse to cope with, or that the horse is less willing to protest with a stranger?

 

[amandap]

I agree, but can we get to the bottom of why "dominance" is so often used to explain the kind of behaviour described by OP?

What do people think is motivating the horse to show aggression when they say the horse is "dominant"? It seems to me there has to be some reason for the aggression. In the case of "dominance", what is assumed to be the underlying cause?

It's important we don't ascribe the wrong reason for a behaviour, because that can affect how we deal with the problem.

I think you should ask this question in tack room.

 

[Myhorseeatsmoney]

Sorry but I agree with everyone else's comments. If she has been a nice individual up until now there is something wrong. She is trying to tell you that something is hurting her my guess is possibly ulcers but it could and probably is the saddle fit. Usually inexperienced owners don't realise when their horses shape has changed so the saddle no longer fits. Depending on the type of saddle some can be altered to fit if it is done by a saddler. Even experienced owners get feeding and saddle fitting wrong. It is only practise that can help this. I would not only check along her spine but when you take the saddle off also check every inch of where the girth has been in an ideal world the saddle will have left marks where it is too tight oor just not fitting correctly. This the reason many horses turn bad because we expect them to put up with pain, imagine you were made to walk with shoes a size too small how long could you cope?

 

[applecart14]

Or you haven't identified it yet.

My assumption too.

 

[mandwhy]

Sorry, some mares ARE dominant and it is simply a handling issue that you need to learn to overcome. My mare is prone to gastric upset but is essentially a dominant mare partially due to previous owner allowing this behaviour and I know another similar mare that belongs to a friend (this mare was roughly handled in a past life so is a little untrusting) They do exist and they do challenge you. With my mare it is rare now but happened fairly often after our 'honeymoon period' of ownership. All is fine now, I know the signs that it could escalate.

You need an instructor or relevant person to help you out with some handling and groundwork, or do a lot of reading. Basically I would chase the horse away and keep it moving for some time. It is fairly likely that the horse is just 'threatening' but do take adequate safety measures, hat on etc. Do some searches on the forum about dominant horses and aggression, there are some interesting posts and yes some of them are in relation to horses that are aggressive due to pain and illness.

Experienced people need to maintain perspective that if they met a horse like this, how likely is it that they would experience this behaviour compared to a relatively inexperienced person, due to your own body language and behaviour, and if it did occur how likely it would be to escalate because you didn't know what to do?

 

[amandap]

The two main causes of gastric and gut upset are stress and diet!

ps. Stress can be caused by inconsistent handling/not being taught what is acceptable! You shouldn't ignore possible physical issues and only concentrate on training/handling imho.

 

[Brightbay]

The two main causes of gastric and gut upset are stress and diet!

ps. Stress can be caused by inconsistent handling/not being taught what is acceptable! You shouldn't ignore possible physical issues and only concentrate on training/handling imho.

^^^^ Yes!

Rather than me typing out a whole long explanation of why and how the term dominance is misunderstood and incorrectly used, I will reference this article, which says exactly what I would

http://goodhorsemanship.ca/horse-myth-4-busted/ (her other myth-busting articles are also excellent )

 

[ISHdaft]

Hi guys, id like to let you's all know my girls back to her old self again.

Both myself and my more experianced horse friends did consider pain to begin with which is why it was ruled out although i do appriciate everyones thought and opinions as i have learned a few things!

i did however add a gel pad under her saddle and do find a huge difference in tacking up and riding her now.

So glad to have my mare back to her normal self and thanks once again for all your thought opinions and advice it was greatly appriciated x