Agricultural Vs equestrian use

[ElleSkywalkingintheair]

Hi folks,

We are looking at leaving Skywalker Towers and going to a bigger place, well more land anyway, and as usual coming up with all the 'agricultural' or 'equestrain' use for land, so can anyone spell out the pro and cons of each? Our local council litterally give no hoots, friends in the village have built, with full planning, stables, arenas etc and have never been asked to change or state use so it's a bit alien to me.

From what I understand, if agricultural and over 10 acres you can pop up any building you like.
Grazing horses is fine but rugging and feeding them bucket feeds/hay is not

If equestrian everything needs planning
Feeding bucket food, hay and riding in field all fine.

Is there a council tax or similar implication for either? If land is used for horses and sheep is it better to be Equestrian or Agricultural?

Does every council have different rules and is Wales any different?

Help!

 

[teapot]

I’d go for equestrian use purely because it allows you to do more when it comes to horses.

Good info here https://hassall.law/agricultural-an...anding-the-difference-to-stay-out-of-trouble/

 

[Hobo2]

Agricultural land you still need planning for sheds .

 

[SEL]

Mine only has agriculture but solicitors couldn't care less when I bought it last year because it's had horses on for 20+ years and one of the stable blocks was granted planning in 2000.

I think it would be more of an issue if it had been farmer agricultural land.

Technically you still need planning for permanent structures and if I ever wanted an arena then I'd wake up the local council planning officers but otherwise no one round here really cares. I have no idea which councils get stressed over rugged horses with a few pony nuts in a bucket but if your neighbours are continuing regardless then you'll probably be ok unless you get someone new and difficult in the area

 

[Tiddlypom]

We changed ours from agricultural to equestrian as part of the planning application for the new arena. It was painless and dots some i's, and Charles Britton recommended that we did it as part of the application. It didn't cost us any extra to add it on to the main application.

 

[ElleSkywalkingintheair]

Just a quick one to add this isn't for my property it's for ones am looking at. Mines had horses on it for 30+ years and as mentioned the LA couldn't care less so can be whatever buyer wants it to be

The question has come about as when enquiring about viewing a property, a very upfront estate agent who said the land was classed as agricultural as was the barn included and the school which they have worded as 'an all weather turnout'

 

[Tiddlypom]

Having equestrian approval would be reassuring in case the LA where you are looking are very picky, and some are.

Planners (and neighbours) are best kept on side.

I've posted about it before, where a neighbour had a nightmare campaign against her arena and stabling application by other residents of their barn conversion complex. Being squeaky clean, like we are, saved some sleepless nights as we know that our own previously granted planning was pored over by the factions ?.

We didn't have a dog in the fight, but could have been caught out in the cross fire.

 

[Orangehorse]

There is a case locally where someone built an outdoor arena and have a massive neighbourhood campaign against them and might potentially have to remove it and return to agriculture. Shudders!

Buildings need prior approval for agriculture and there is limited engineering work, e.g. drives or hardstanding you are allowed to do. It is a bit of a complex area, agreed.

Whether you have to pay rates is also something to remember. Beware private use only and commercial use where you are having liveries, giving lessons, etc. At the moment there is a Rural Rate relief so small businesses don't have to pay, but that could change.

 

[SEL]

We changed ours from agricultural to equestrian as part of the planning application for the new arena. It was painless and dots some i's, and Charles Britton recommended that we did it as part of the application. It didn't cost us any extra to add it on to the main application.

My solicitors basically said get equestrian use if I wanted an arena. Too skint currently.

@ElleSkywalker how long has the "all weather turnout" been there? The longer the better.

 

[Nasicus]

There is a case locally where someone built an outdoor arena and have a massive neighbourhood campaign against them and might potentially have to remove it and return to agriculture. Shudders!

Was it all approved through planning, above water etc? ?

 

[ElleSkywalkingintheair]

My solicitors basically said get equestrian use if I wanted an arena. Too skint currently.

@ElleSkywalker how long has the "all weather turnout" been there? The longer the better.

I believe over 4 years and the barns been used to house horses for over 4 years too but estate agents didn't know if the 4 years no complaints so it's good to go think applies or not. There is also an annexe that is supposed to be a garage but they taken out an indemnity insurance re this but I have no idea what that covers. I'd certainly spend a few hundred having a good chat with a solicitor pre putting in an offer!

 

[SlinkyMinxy]

My property used to be part of a farm, so the land is still classed as agricultural usage. However, the former agricultural barn that now houses the stables was changed to equestrian usage by the previous owners, and the part of the field that the arena stands in has equestrian use (but not the land surrounding it). Several of my neighbours have obtained planning consent for stables for equestrian usage in fields that are still classed as agricultural, so it doesn't seem to be much of a problem here (it is a very rural/horsey area though, which probably helps).

I've wondered about getting my fields changed over to equestrian usage but have been told by others that agricultural use is more attractive if you ever want to sell, due to the possible permitted development rights. I have been here for nearly 10 years anyway, so in a few months time, the council won't be able to take enforcement action against my equestrian usage. In any case, as well as grazing the horses, my fields are left fallow for about 6 months each as I rotate them, and I also cut hay off them, both of which are legitimate agricultural uses, so the equestrian stuff possibly wouldn't even be viewed as the main use of the fields. As someone else has said, it depends how picky your council is.

I don't pay non-domestic rates on either the stables or the arena - the council know they are there, as they approved the planning, but they have never asked for any money. I know that the neighbouring council is a bit stricter on this, so again, it will depend on where your property is.

Agricultural permitted development rights don't really come into effect until you have at least 5 hectares/12 acres, although I think that you can carry out very limited works (such as putting in an entrance track) on holdings that are smaller than this.

Buildings without permission become unenforceable after 4 years, but change of use requires 10 years, so you could end up with a building that is technically allowed to exist, but has no defined use - that might be the case with the "all weather turnout area" in the property you are looking at. Once enough time has elapsed, you can apply for a Certificate of Lawfulness from the council, but you will have to prove the date of construction and that the usage has been continuous. Alternatively, you can go for retrospective planning, with the risk that if it's refused, you might have to remove the offending development.

Hope that helps!

 

[Fred66]

Be aware that stables, ménage etc are subject to non domestic rates unless they are for agricultural use.

If the stables are very close to the house then you might get away with it as well.

Some councils are hotter than others on collecting this

 

[Tiddlypom]

Be aware that stables, ménage etc are subject to non domestic rates unless they are for agricultural use.

If the stables are very close to the house then you might get away with it as well.

Some councils are hotter than others on collecting this

There are currently exemptions for most domestic stabling and arenas. Didn't stop us getting a backdated demand for nearly £7k, but we were swiftly able to get it cancelled.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/council-have-just-been-round-stable-tax.744176/

I'm glad that this thread exists, as I remembered it when it was our turn on Friday for the arrival in the post of a hefty rates bill for our purely private yard, stables, shelters and arena.

Nearly £7k due within 14 days for rates, backdated to 2017 .

View attachment 81283

There was no accompanying advice on how to appeal or discuss the bill, just the demand for nearly £7k. The council helpline had already knocked off for the weekend, so we had to hang on til today to query it.

All sorted, no monies owed. The council is required by government to send out these demands, but the very helpful council bod readily agreed that we have small business exemption. Even though we are not a business, this is a private home. All legit. Council bod agrees that it is a nonsense, but the inflexible wording of the demand is imposed on them by government.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

Oh, and btw he also told us how they assess whether the stables are within the curtilage of a property. If any wall or part of the stable structure touches the garden boundary, it is within the curtilage. If the stables are close to the boundary but don't touch it, it isn't.

Written confirmation from the council that, instead of the £6939.75 that was being demanded for non domestic rates for the stables less than a month ago, we owe precisely £0.00. As we knew, and they knew, but the government had still had a good go at intimidating us into paying .

View attachment 82117

 

[blitznbobs]

Keep as much as you can agricultural— you get loads of permitted development rights and agricultural land is not subject to inheritance tax .

 

[Honey08]

Yes totally this! I’d not change anything from agricultural unless I had to. I’m currently hoping that agricultural status on my late father’s lane will save me a lot of inheritance tax. Although it may not hold up as ive had horses on the land and it’s not been farmed. I’m about to speak to a probate solicitor about it.

 

[Polos Mum]

It's really very very variable by local council.

We bought a 12 acre field with a standing barley crop in 2007 - after harvest it was drilled with grass seed and we grazed the margins immediately.
Planning for stables was super easy - I applied for a 10 stable american barn, thinking they would reject and we'd negotiate and meet in the middle on size. Their view was "horses have to live somewhere" any materials, any site location, no bother. When I applied for school (which I did myself with hand drawn pictures) they had a couple of questions but just crack on was the view.
It was clearly agricultural land but that never came up.

My friend who was literally 5 miles away had a total nightmare with them limiting the stables to 1 per acre, only wooden, small overhand and that was after months and months of to and fro and hers was established grazing.

Our current property was run as a livery yard for 15 years, no planning for any buildings / hay barn/ stables or the school and so I'm guessing still agricultural land too. Solicitors never asked and it's never come up. The sellers paid a small insurance premium should there ever be an issue on planning - but as it's been so long - tough on the council.

 

[southerncomfort]

Just a small side note re indemnity insurance mentioned above because I only found this out recently.

The people we bought from paid for indemnity insurance for outbuildings that had no planning in place. We can prove they've been here for over 10 years so thought we'd apply for a certificate of lawfulness. However, doing so renders the insurance policy invalid. You can understand why from the insurers point of view, but just something to bear in mind if you do buy a property that has indemnity insurance on any buildings.

 

[SEL]

Keep as much as you can agricultural— you get loads of permitted development rights and agricultural land is not subject to inheritance tax .

Actually the inheritance tax issue is more complex than that - I know someone in what is now 3 years of disputing with HMRC. Grazing horses even on agricultural land doesn't make it exempt. It needs to be "farmed" for at least a period of time. Selling a hay crop counts but not making hay for your own horses.

Anyway, lots of nuances is really what I want to say and HMRC digging their heels in at every step.

 

[blitznbobs]

Actually the inheritance tax issue is more complex than that - I know someone in what is now 3 years of disputing with HMRC. Grazing horses even on agricultural land doesn't make it exempt. It needs to be "farmed" for at least a period of time. Selling a hay crop counts but not making hay for your own horses.

Anyway, lots of nuances is really what I want to say and HMRC digging their heels in at every step.

But once youve switched it to equestrian there is no hope of exemptions

 

[palo1]

Keep as much as you can agricultural— you get loads of permitted development rights and agricultural land is not subject to inheritance tax .

This!! Agricultural land is likely to hold it's value because of the range of things you can do. Technically, if you ride your horse on agricultural land it should be classed as 'equestrian' but custom and practice means that it would be very difficult to pursue that. You can feed outside on agricultural land too. It is the riding bit that can be confusing tbh but we have been advised several times in the past NOT to change from agricultural status to equestrian. But everyone has different needs and some folk may feel more comfortable with a change of use. It's generally not a biggie unless you need to run an equestrian business.

 

[SEL]

But once youve switched it to equestrian there is no hope of exemptions

Absolutely

 

[Orangehorse]

Was it all approved through planning, above water etc? ?

No I don't think they had planning approval, they went ahead and then had to a retrospective, but it looked as though the Council wanted to refuse.

 

[Loveponies]

Can you change to"mixed use"- agricultural and equestrian to keep options open?

 

[ElleSkywalkingintheair]

Can you change to"mixed use"- agricultural and equestrian to keep options open?

Is that a thing? If it were that would be very useful ?

 

[Loveponies]

I think so have a lok at this https://www.prism-ag.co.uk/case-studies.php?p=45