Allen and page p&p or c&c

[SILVERTRINITY24]

Hi, my horse needs more calories and is in hard work (7 days a week). He is a poor doer and just needs more weight for over winter. I have found conditioning cubes and sugarbeet is working for him at the moment. However im worried when winter arrives it just wont be enough.
He is currently on 4kg of cubes and 1 scoop of sugarbeet as well as linseed and supplements. In the depths of winter he also gets another feed in the middle of the day (so 6kg of cubes) and saracen equijewel.

I was thinking about changing the sugarbeet to either calm and condition or Power and performance. Butttt he has had ulcers and I dont want to aggravate them.

Was just wanting to try and cut down on cubes but need to replace with something else! He has adlib high spec haylege and lots of grass!!

Thank you in advance !

 

[ihatework]

What conditioning cubes is he on / energy content?

How big is the horse?

 

[SILVERTRINITY24]

What conditioning cubes is he on / energy content?

How big is the horse?

mole valley, as these work out the cheapest and have the highest energy content compared to price, and he is 17hh and a tb

 

[ihatework]

Okay, jumbled thoughts ...

That’s a reasonable amount of food, especially this time of year. 2kg of cubes plus beet is quite a volume - do you have a particularly big horse? That would be a similar amount of hard feed that my really big eventer is on (3x day). I’d be inclined to feed your 4kg over 3 feeds now.

I’m not sure switching SB to an Allen & page compound is really the right way - all you are doing is increasing the compound feed weight, and you are already maxed out on that.

So feed wise you want to be looking for the max DE you can find at the lowest volume, whilst considering starch/sugar for the ulcers.

Given you have mentioned A&P you might want to look at their new ulcer compound feed and consider something along those lines instead of your cube/SB combo - you could top this up with your linseed.

Next you need to have a real honest think about potential reasons why you have ongoing ulcers as this will play a huge part in condition. So pain / stress etc.

Sounds like a holistic approach might need to be taken with this

 

[ihatework]

mole valley, as these work out the cheapest and have the highest energy content compared to price, and he is 17hh and a tb

What DE and starch level are they?

 

[SILVERTRINITY24]

Thank you for your reply, Im convinced its stress related. He is a very internally stressy horse which doesnt help keep the weight on! Its almost a catch 22 as i have to feed him lots because of the work but without the work and less feed, he drops condition!

I have tried him on so many types of feed and combos, therefore im reluctant to change too much! I have also spoken to quite a few big brands in regards to nutrition... some of which better than others. When I first got him I had him on Calm and condition and sugerbeet however it was recommended by them to feed 4-6kg dry weight of feed!! which is a huge amount !!! I didnt fancy 5 or 6 trips to the yard to feed.

 

[ihatework]

I’m confused, you have just said you are currently feeding 4kg and over winter 6kg, so why was the A&P advice any different?

I suspect, whilst cheap, the mole valley cubes won’t be the most suitable given what you have said

 

[splashgirl45]

silly question, but are his teeth ok? also i would feed him smaller feeds and more frequently ... sometimes a bigger feed isnt always doing the job as some can almost pass through without being absorbed properly by the body..

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Just to chuck a curve ball in, have you tried any veteran feeds alongside perhaps an ulcer type feed?
I've found that a veteran feed (like Pure feeds veteran mix), fed alongside something like Top spec ulcerkind cubes can, over a month or so, really help to not just maintain but slowly gain too.
Obs get a 2nd opinion on teeth 1st, plus worm count or worming too.

I agree with IHW ref the mole valley cubes.

 

[SILVERTRINITY24]

I’m confused, you have just said you are currently feeding 4kg and over winter 6kg, so why was the A&P advice any different?

I suspect, whilst cheap, the mole valley cubes won’t be the most suitable given what you have said

Sorry should have added, calm and condition needs to be soaked. She recommended 4-6 dry weight which makes about 4-5 bucket fulls of the stuff!

 

[SILVERTRINITY24]

I’m confused, you have just said you are currently feeding 4kg and over winter 6kg, so why was the A&P advice any different?

I suspect, whilst cheap, the mole valley cubes won’t be the most suitable given what you have said

I have tried almost all brands of cubes: baileys, spillers etc etc but the mole valley ones workout cheaper and recommended feeding guidelines are lower than most competitors. ( what i have found may not still be true!!)

 

[SILVERTRINITY24]

silly question, but are his teeth ok? also i would feed him smaller feeds and more frequently ... sometimes a bigger feed isnt always doing the job as some can almost pass through without being absorbed properly by the body..

Yes his teeth were horrendous when we got him ( hadn't been done in 11 years!!) they were being done 3 times a year however they are now yearly. I do try and break up feeding as much as possible. For example when im up the yard all morning I will feed his cubes in two lots. However I cant/ dont have the time to visit more than three times a day!

 

[AdorableAlice]

The Allen and Page feeds are effective, my old boy thrives on veteran and vitality and it is the only feed he has stayed interested in. A level scoop is a good 2kg and makes a huge amount when soaked, I couldn't imagine a picky feeder wanting 4 or 6 scoops, it would over face them perhaps. Plus if you could get it all eaten, the horse would be pretty full at all times, would he eat his forage.

Baileys No 17 was used in an equine hospital that I had reason to find a horse in recently. That might be worth looking at OP. It has good reviews and the vets told me they routinely use it for under the weather, no appetite patients. Mine was injured rather than sick and left the hospital looking gleaming and ready for HOYs !

I add soaked Copra to the VV if needed. Equi jewel is another good dense calorie supply without bulk. I do think a hard doer or picky feeder is better with small calorie dense feeds and tonnes of top quality forage.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Have you tried any Saracens feeds? When I worked in a feed store they were far and away the most popular brand for people with poor doer thoroughbreds.

To be completely balanced we did push it as a brand because they always gave us good incentives! BUT the feedback from customers was also excellent.

Maybe try one of their feeds that has the Equijewel included. Or try Re-leve which will be better for the ulcers.

Others to consider I'd say would be Topspec Ulsakind or Dengie Happy/Healthy Tummy. The Dengie feed got a couple of really strong converts. The Ulsakind we struggled to shift but possibly worth a try. I wasn't around for when Baileys brought out Ease and Excel but I believe that's worth a look too.

I don't know the DE in any though.

There's lots of ulcer specific high energy options out there now!

FWIW Saracen feed volume tends to be smaller than other brands iirc.

 

[Shay]

It might be worth having an A&P rep come out to visit you. I really do rate their feed (no I don't work for them) and there is a lot in the range. Googleing your current cubes - there is no nutritional info on the pack (not on the website anyway). You say they are the cheapest - that is almost certainly true. But without the detailed nutritional info you will have no idea how many calories are in the feeds you are giving. On that basis alone I would look to swap to something you can be more sure of.

You might also look at option to increase calories in browse feeding. For example you can put P&P in a ball for him to pick at overnight - you don't have to soak P&P. Several buckets at night so he can "graze" etc. The other thing that jumps out - if you feed ore than about 2kgs in any one feed its too big for the stomach. When the stomach fills the lower sphicter will open to release feed into the small intestine regardless of whether digestion has finished in the stomach or not. So by feeding more you may just be having you feed pass through undigested. You need the highest possible proven DE in the smallest possible feed mindful of the ulcers.

 

[splashgirl45]

i would second equi jewel....my loan horse lost weight during one winter and i found equijewel really helped and you dont have to feed loads...

 

[Meredith]

Re A and P
I have just started a second bag of Soothe and Gain their new feed. I add Graze On grass to bind it.
Be aware though it is only 15kg, not 20kg.
I used TopSpec cool condition cubes plus TS balancer previously but saw an A and P rep at Camp who recommended S and G.
It seems cheaper at the moment and my mare eats it well. Only the winter will tell.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

My tb's thrive on A&P Veteran Vitality. It gives them all the extra bits and pieces that they need.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I say this alot but add some micronised linseed? Great for weight gain. Then you hopefully wouldn't have to have such big feeds.
I really rate a&p feeds how about trying their soothe and gain feed?

 

[Meredith]

Re A and P
I have just started a second bag of Soothe and Gain their new feed. I add Graze On grass to bind it.
Be aware though it is only 15kg, not 20kg.
I used TopSpec cool condition cubes plus TS balancer previously but saw an A and P rep at Camp who recommended S and G.
It seems cheaper at the moment and my mare eats it well. Only the winter will tell.

I say this alot but add some micronised linseed? Great for weight gain. Then you hopefully wouldn't have to have such big feeds.
I really rate a&p feeds how about trying their soothe and gain feed?

 

[Bellaboo18]

Oh sorry Meredith I missed your post