Allen and Paige- Calm and Condition

[Nakipa]

I have a 17hh 4 yr old TB. He is normally not spooky or silly.
I have a bit of trouble keeping weight on him and despite having teeth done, worming etc he is only 500 kilos on the weigh tape and looks a bit underweight.

I bought some Calm and Condition and started feeding it to him giving him 600grams together with Alpha oil 1 scoop, 1 scoop of Hi Fibre cubes and pink powder. He has about a cup full of vegetable oil in each feed. He had this twice a day.
Within a day he started to get silly and spooky and just not his usual self.

I rang the feed merchant and she said that I was feeding him far to much of it and I should only give him 300 grams split between the two feeds with half a scoop of Alpha oil and half a scoop of Hi Fibre cubes and no oil.

He has ad lib hay and is out in the day and in at night. We have a bit of grass but not loads yet.

I have been looking at the nutritional values for the Calm and Cond and there is no way that this is enough for him and he really needs a lot more calories (I think) if I want him to gain weight. He is working about 4 times a week. 3 times either lunging or schooling and at least 1 hack.

I don't know what to do now as I can't cope with him when he is so spooky and he wasn't like this before. I thought the whole point of this was that he was CALM!

Has anyone else had this problem with this feed. Would I be better off trying Baileys no 4?

Before I started the C and C he was having a scoop of a general mix with a big scoop of unmolassed sugarbeet and Alpha A original and the cup of oil twice a day.

Anyone got any ideas about what to change to help him put on weight. I am sure he is not getting enough feed.

 

[DellaMoon]

Calm and Condition had exactly the same effect on my old mare. I resorted to three meals a day of Scoop Alfa-A 1/2 hi fibre cubes and 1/4 Baileys no 4. I think it's the oil that effected her though as the DE is virtually the same in C&C and the no. 4. If I were you I'd get in touch with a couple of the nutritionists at different feed companies and see what they say. I wouldn't go by what your feed merchant said, as you said it doesn't sound right!

 

[KatB]

The feed merchant is full of rubbish!! That wouldnt put weight on a horse that size... !! The Calm and condition is a fab feed but can fizz some horses up as it does still contain grain. I would try upping the Alfa Oil, cutting out the calm and condition and upping the fibre cubes, keeping the oil. I would look at feeding about 4-5 scoops of Alfa Oil a day (1.6-2kg) 2 scoops of high fibre cubes, oil and suger beet

 

[rangerover]

Wot about the original Baileys (No1?). Calm and Condition upset my mare to the extent that I have taken her off all grain and now feed Simple Systems. Linseed is good for weight gain as is cooked barley. fed warm (yum). Also I found Baileys Lo-Cal put on weight (when it wasn't supposed to)! Good luck.

 

[AmyMay]

A TB gelding on my yard is on calm and condition and is fed an enormous amount twice a day (sorry not sure of the weight - but think of medium rubber feed skip full to brim).

Doesn't send him loopy in any shape or form.

I would imagine it's the oil that is winding your horse up and would drop it, especially if you are feeding Alpha Oil as well.

 

[chrissie1]

Anything I have ever fed to it has been anything but 'calm'.

Micronised Linseed is wonderful and non heating, and I have also found that Build Up cubes don't turn them into raving spooky loonies either.

 

[Nakipa]

Thanks for the quick replies. He was having the oil before so I know it is not that making him spooky.

I will stop it all together then. I am in France so have to get any feed brought over for me at great expense. I am going over to the UK next week so I want to bring back some better feed for him so I will get a bag of micronised linseed then. Do feed merchants usually stock it or will I have to order it in especially?

I was wondering about getting a bag of bluechip as well and trying that. Trouble is I just cannot let him get too silly. I know all horses are different but if he reacts to the C and C then I suppose it is a good possibility that he would react to that?

 

[SmartieBean09]

I would also consider starch levels. Although there isnt a lot of starch in C&C, there is cereal in there which is what gives contributes to the starch content. Try a low starch diet.

Dengie Alfa A Oil
High Fibre Cubes
Dengie Alfa Beet or Speedibeet

Speak to the feed companies that supply the above. They will let you know what levels you should be feeding of each and also if there are any other products you could try.
I have also read on here that ERS Pellets by Dodson and Horrell are good. They are low in starch and high in fibre and oil and have a high DE which will help with condition. Spillers slow release energy cubes are also very good!

 

[dickens]

Hello

Have 3 feeds a day
in each
3 1/2 lb of Baileys No2 Horse and Pony Cubes (1 stubbs Scoop level)
2 mugs of Baileys Outshine
and Dengie Alfa Beet in a seperate bucket

introduce the Alfa beet till you have soaked up to a round pan scoop dry weight and soaked and always feed the majority in a seperate bucket as he will have too big a feed otherwise.

Do remember that he is only 4 and he will not mature till he is at least 8!

Good luck

 

[vicksey]

oh dear, slightly worried as my friend has just starting feeding this to a VERY VERY fizzy TB ex racer. Why is it called CALM and condition when it contains stuff that can potentially make a horse fizzy??????

 

[teddyt]

Calm and condition is the same as topline conditioning cubes- its clever marketing to call them that and it works! People buy them because of the name without necessarily checking the nutrient specification.

OP- Calm and condition contains 19% starch, which although lower than many feeds it is still higher than many too. The energy from starch is released quickly following digestion, hence it can cause silliness. Horses have evolved to have a high fibre, slow release energy diet- not one containing cereals and starch. Some cope but many dont, mentally or physically.

To gain weight you need to increase the overall energy content of the diet, with the aim to keeping starch and sugar to a minimum (under 10%). Instead of the calm and condition either increase the alfa a oil and fibre cubes or replace the calm and condition with another high energy, low starch product. There are lots of possiblities, personally i wouldnt say baileys no 4 is one of them as you can get much lower starch products.

I wouldnt add another high oil product either, as he is getting plenty of that from the chaff and added oil and palatability may become a problem as well as needing to be balanced with vitamin e.

 

[Steeleydan]

My sister feeds Calm and Condition to her TB I'll say ex racer although he's been out of racing for a long time he's 15. He gets a full scoop soaked at night with a full scoop of pony nuts and a scoop of molli chaff calmer, ad lib haylege. This amount suits him any more and he leaves it. She has never found it makes him spooky or silly. You could always ring and speak to Allen and Page themselves and ask their advice on how much to give to your horse.

 

[Nakipa]

But that is the problem. On only 300grms a day he is silly. I am not feeding it any more.

 

[MegaBeast]

300g of CC is nothing at all. You can feed up to 6.25kg of C&C a day to a horse of that size. I've recently taken my TB mare off C&C as it was doing nothing for her weight and have now got her on the A&P Power and Performance instead, however it never wound her up or changed her behaviour

 

[Toast]

id just like to put out the possibility that it could be the Alfa a Oil thats sending him silly? its like rocket fuel for both my TB ex racer and my appaloosa.
x

 

[seabiscuit]

Try the Pure feed range- very very low starch/sugars and very conditioning! My TB loves it and has blossomed on it.
http://www.thepurefeedcompany.com/about_us.html

I personally think Calm and condition is a complete rip off because its 40% sugar beet with a few grains added and a teeny bit of oil! You might as well feed 1/2 scoop nuts with 1/2 scoop sugar beet and save yourself loads of money :-(
Calm and condition was **** for my TB mare , she went nuts and also didnt like all that mushy slosh very much! None of the horses at the yard like it much either.

 

[maybedaisy]

I've been using it for over 5 years. It was great for my veteran mare as I could feed it as a mash. I now give it to my poor doer. Several other horses on the yard are also fed it and none of them has ever been sent loopy.

 

[skint1]

I know every horse is different but when our ex racer mare had Alpha A Oil she got quite *spirited* but it is good for putting weight on.

I have heard good things about Bailey's Numbers 1 and 13 but haven't tried them so can't talk from personal experience, but they're both mixes I think. How about something like Hi Fi or Alpha A Original?

 

[soupdragon71]

Very surprised you're having problems with C&C - I have 2 very stressy TB's that I changed over to this feed as they weren't holding weight. Both have been brilliant on it - held weight over the last 3 winters, easy to handle and no spookier than before (but have always been spooky!) They both eat up really well, while wouldn't do so with sugar beet and normal mix (can be fussy). Always think they are having a huge amount of feed as it swells up so much, but all they get is C&C with alfalfa and carrots, and our grass is very poor all winter.

 

[soupdragon71]

Have just realised you're using alfa-a oil - now this did send my 2 loopy! One of them has never bucked in his life and as soon as I put him on alfa-a oil he started playing up, getting worse and worse until eventually he bucked me off during a lesson, in an arena he was in every week. Realised the only change to his regime was the alfa-a oil, so changed back to original and he returned to his normal sweet self. Even the older, sensible, been there, done that boy was a bit more fizzy, which was bad as he is the spookiest horse out!!

 

[Nakipa]

It's not easy is it? They are all different and react differently. I have stopped the c and c but carried on with the Alpha oil and he does seem a bit better. He is on box rest right now as he has a puncture wound to his fetlock and is quite lame. Hopefully he will be back in work in a week or so.

I am going to stop the alpha oil and see if that works. I am finding it very hard to keep weight on without the fizz.

Thanks again for all your input. I will maybe try some different combinations as recommended on this thread until I find something that suits him and me!

 

[hatters]

My tb ex-racer has alpha-a oil, topspec balancer, topspec cool condition cubes or speedibeet (or both in winter). He has gone from skinny when I got him in May last year, to living out over winter and holding his weight just fine.

I stick with the principals of - low sugar, high fibre, no grain. Good for the stomach (less likely to get ulcers), and keeps him sensible. Of course also ad-lib forage too.

 

[Twirly]

Another who had a horse that C & C sent utterly loopy....but I now have a horse that went ga-ga on Alfa Oil......

I've had to get some weight on my two as at the tail end of the winter they dropped a bit

I feed Grass nuts, Just Grass and linseed meal normally, I stared adding the Alfa Oil and my rising four year old went off her head - really reactive and spooking at everything, so I took her off that and upped the amount of linseed meal to three big mugs a day and added a scoop of soaked speedibeet per feed, made a difference within a week!

 

[TallyHo123]

I used to feed this to my first tb, it made no difference at all with her attitude and certainly didn't calm her down at all. It did put weight and condition on her beautifully though.
I don't think you would have any problems feeding more than what the feed merchant recommended though.

 

[ha903070]

I feed C and C to all three horses, a very poor ID filly came to us was very fussy to feed turned her nose up at everything but will eat C and C and is gaining weight. To our 15 yr old fizzy tb who it works wonders for and bought it as all mixes sent my big hunter mare barmy but she needed help keeping weight on in winter. She calmed right down on it and kept her weight its been perfect for all 3.
Also done Alfa oil with it this winter but giving that up the quality is poor and tb wont eat it.
They dont get alot big horse is 17hh and big build, she gets a scoop a day over winter and it is enough for her. Ad lib hay and haylage in the field has been then best way at keeping weight on them though.

 

[fruity]

My skitty mare was on C + C in the 2008 and 2009 winter and i slowly realised she was loopy on it!!! I changed her to Baileys no 1 and linseed powder from Equus,sugarbeet and Allen & Page Ride & Relax,it has been a fantastic combination and normally really loses condition coming into winter. She is looking the best she has ever looked and i am soo pleased. I also have a v skinny stressy 18yr old anglo arab,when he came he was a hatrack,he is fed on baileys no 1,sugar beet and D&H veteran cubes and he is looking fab coming into summer now and i only got him in October 09. Also Baileys no 1 is cheaper than any of the others if that helps you,i just got it as i'd heard good feedback from other owners. I noticed results in less than 1 and a half weeks!!! Much more rib coverage on both of mine.

 

[hrhmika]

I had exactly the same problem with my TB ex racer, he got really fizzy and put on no condition, used the baileys No 4 cubes now he looks amazing and behaves beautifully!

 

[domane]

I'm very philosophical about feed as what will work for one, won't for another and as this thread shows, C&C can have very different effects on a breed of horse that it fundamentally the same. I feed my boy (TB) C&C with no problems... the grain in it is maize and Bailey's Number 4 is wheat-based. If you were feeding your horse Alfa-A Oil before with no problems, then it's not likely to be that which sent him gaga. The problem I have with my boy is that sugar sends him nuts, so I have to avoid anything with mollasses, use hay instead of haylage and I can't even feed him carrots!

It's such a shame that we can't buy feed in smaller quantities because if you find that it really doesn't suit your horse, then you're stuck with practically a whole bag.

If you email Allen & Page they can advise you on a good feed strategy and they usually send you out some feed samples and money-off vouchers too. Definitely worth an email.