alternative/ natural horsemanship type folks (vent)

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skewbaldpony

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Why, oh why oh why do these type of people have to do it? i have nothing against alternative methods, i think there's a grain of sense in all of them, and more than a grain in some, i'm a bit anti the expensive marketing ploys of parelli, but other than that, each to his own.
But what REALLY bugs me, is why do they have to present their method as 'better than brutally throwing the horse to the ground, branding it with fire, and beating it into submission', which obviously do form a major part of the BHS syllabus. Granted you don't usually get to the full on branding iron stage til Stage IV but let's face it, Pony Club C Test does have a lassoing element to it. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT.
I think it originates from the Monty Roberts era, and yes, OK he did see that in his youth, but it's not prevalent in Surrey is it? Nor has it formed a major part of European Horsemanship for some centuries.
Sorry. Just had another gutful of it. I'll go away and chew my boots for a bit now ......
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Beware!
This forum is full of the 'we love the ickle foalies and we are going to bond with them awwww cute, what nice people we are' school of thought
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If I were you, I'd take my lasso, branding irons, blood stained whip and rib stabbing spurs (I have a full set from BHS Stage IV too LOL) and HIDE!
S
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Oh we brand and lasso up in Yorkshire !!

Lol - I know what you mean - I think the natural horsemanship methods have just gone a bit over the top - Parelli for example - I dont think I will ever need to bounce my swiss exercise ball up and down whilst riding my horse - mind you - YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN YOU WILL NEED TO BOUNCE A GIANT BALL NEXT TO YOUR HORSE

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I have tried some NH methods and found they worked quite well for some issues, however I would not discount traditional methods advocated by BHS, NVQ or pony club. They are just a different way of dealing with things when traditional methods dont work.

The danger is when you mention this and people leap on you convinced that you are part of their 'sect'. I have found some people to be quite brain washed by it - when the whole ethos is to have an open mind (or so I thought). I have a Parrelli lady at work who is constantly telling me that every probelm I have is because of xyz and Parrelli would cure it - the woman hardly ever rides her own horse - grrrr
 
Well I for one think all horses should be handled with the natural approach, and plan to lobby the BSJA to let me compete in a dentil floss bridle, bareback...and barefoot (the horse, not me...I will be in my eco friendly boots)
 
i do a little tiny bit of natural horsemanship, plus a fair bit of classical dressage (taught by a master), plus stuff i have learned from traditionalists, plus trial + error and experience... mix them all together, add a big dose of patience and tolerance and determination and love for horses, and try to go from there.
when i wanted to teach my 4 yr old to load, on my own(she'd never been in a horsebox, for various reasons, and i am usually on my own), i thought about it for ages (she was a chestnut mare and, although not difficult, very bright and... opinionated, at times) and decided to do it the parelli-ish way... my version of which was, to let her watch me lead another horse in and out lots of times, and then to let her have a good look on a parelli headcollar and leadrope, and then to wait for her to follow me in, with lots of encouragement and praise. she went in as good as gold after about 1 minute of dithering, and has loaded like an angel ever since.
compared to the traditional way i was taught, which involved lunge lines, whips, bribery, etc etc for a recalcitrant horse (and sometimes ended up getting flipping dangerous to all concerned) it was a walk in the park, and one of the most satisfying 15 minutes i've ever had with horses!

in this major respect, i think natural horsemanship/parelli is very useful - it makes you think of things from the horse's point of view, and work out how to make it simple and easy for the horse. a lot of b.h.s. stuff, imho, does not.
not all pro-parelli people are pathetic pony-huggers, just as not all b.h.s. people are cruel.
btw, i knew a B.H.S.I. who told me that the only way she could get her (Advanced) horse on the bit was if she did his continental noseband up with her foot against his jaw for leverage. if it was that tight, she could get him on the bit. i saw her do this, she wasn't joking about putting her foot against his jaw to yank it tight.
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there's good and bad in every area, i guess. and good and bad to be taken from every one, too.
sorry for rambling.
 
Am I the only one thinking "Oh not that old same old again". Is everyone now going to repeat all the wisdom, experiences and sarky comments that they have already put several times on other NH and Parelli threads? Yawn...
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Here's mine in brief
Not all NH=Parelli. Some of it is, surprisingly, very sensible and very good.
Not all NH people slag off other methods as cruel or unusual.
Not all NH people insist on treeless, bitles, bareback, barefoot or barebummed for that matter!
If you think all NH=Parelli and all NH practioners bounce stupid balls and play pointless games then maybe your experience is limited.
 
*nods and nods*
i had a confirmed chronic headshaker. when someone came to view my house, and he was doing it manically in the field without even a headcollar on, she said "Oh, Pat would cure that."
"Who?" i asked eagerly. "I'm willing to try anything." i thought she was talking about an amazing vet i hadn't heard of, or something.
"Pat Parelli" (said as if he was her best mate, of course.)
Well, i've been to the Parelli conference, and i think he's a master horseman, and also a great showman and businessman, but i have yet to hear that he's a magician that can cure a horse with a serious physiological problem such as this one had.
i agree totally with your first paragraph. it's all more tools to have at your disposal, different things suit different horses, etc.
it's also a great excuse for people who are too afraid to ride their own horses, in my experience.
 
Even saying "natural horsemanship/parelli" is misleading. They are not the same or interchangeable. That's like saying horse riding/BHS. Natural horsemanship is an overarching title of sorts under which many different approaches to training horse and rider sit.
 
To be serious, a common sense approach is far better.

Bruce follows me around the yard - I can ask him to stand in the middle of the yard and he will, he can get turned out and follow me to the field, I call him and he comes trotting over, and we have a very strong bond but I have never joined up with him. He can also be groomed by a seven year old...and she can muck him out when he is in the stable (he has amazing manners, if I do say so myself!)

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On the flip side, I am not ashamed to say that I have booted him in the ribs for being naughty (kicking out when I touched his mud fever - and he meant it) and bitten him back when he nipped me once - he never ever did it again.
Just this weekend he got a serious smack when I was riding becasue he went up with me as he was being impatient when I opened the gate.

Softly softly works no better than harshly harshly. A balanced, common sense approach is what is best, ,which is why people dont agree with NH or Parelli - it is faddy and too set with one approach.
 
Erm, i haven't read lots of other NH and Parelli threads. very sorry for boring you, why don't you go off and read a different thread instead then?
did you actually read my comment? i very obviously do not think that "all NH=Parelli and all NH practisioners bounce stupid balls and play pointless games", any my experience most certainly is not limited.
 
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...plan to lobby the BSJA to let me compete in a dentil floss bridle, bareback...and barefoot (the horse, not me...I will be in my eco friendly boots)

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Actually I checked my rule book and think you can!

I quite like some of the MR stuff, certainly improved my horses... and do think BHS do not teach people to lead horses properly.

That said I am not adverse to giving my horse a whack now and then, especially 'Kevin' as he throws himself on something to scratch on, usually mum (teenage horse with sweet itch)
 
I say I practice natural horsemanship - its not taught by parelli, its not taugh by Monty Roberts - its taught by horses! Yes thats right, I've said it here before - I didn't have any horses and used to walk my dog through fields full of coloured cobs and I would watch them interact with each other. I learned more in three years of watching them then I had learned up to that point. I treat my horse as though I was the leader of the herd. He's like putty in my hands 99.9% of the time. And for that .1% he gets a stern "EXCUSE ME" then he stops whatever he was attempting and comes to me. Call it what you want, I call it true slushy love and natural horsemanship
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. As for BHS who cares if you lunge with a twist in the lunge rein and without a lunge whip in your hand, what bl??dy difference does it make as long as you end up with the result you want???!!!!
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There is no need to be so agressive !!!!

flippin heck !

I personally think parelli is a joke - YES PAT and LINDA are very good at what they do but I just HATE their marketing ideas - selling their methods to Joe public and making it out to be some miracle cure!!!

I have used a natural horse person my my own pony - I thought she was great TBH - I just get cranked off with all the glorification of alot of natural techniques in order to sell sell sell......... most of its about making money not sorting peoples horses out

Some of the things that natural horsemanship encourages could be very dangerous in the wrong hands ..... i.e novice riders that we all rant about thinking that spending 100 quid on parelli DVDs will solve it all and it wont.

Its not what natural horsemanship does IMO - its how they market it!!
 
Kerilli - did I say you? Sorry, I didn't mean to offent you, but if you do a some searches maybe you will understand my reaction a bit more. Just wait and watch the responses to your question. You've already got people who appear to think Parelli is the epitome or example of all NH. In my opinion the only good thing Monty Roberts and Parelli did in the UK was to introduce people to some new ideas. But in practise they are a very poor advert for the natural horsemanship approach to training. An approach that has been around for a very long time, and is firmly grounded in common sense.
To get some balance it's worth looking up people like Dorrance, Branaman, Brainard, Hunt - those are just a few. Even in the UK we have clinics with some amazing trainers who definitely have an NH background, but are light years away from Parelli et al. However, they are so low-key you don't notice them.
 
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Some of the things that natural horsemanship encourages could be very dangerous in the wrong hands ..... i.e novice riders that we all rant about thinking that spending 100 quid on parelli DVDs will solve it all and it wont.



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The problem with NH etc is also that people who are not 'good' enough to have any sort of reputation as being good at something - eg showjumping/schooling horses/handling youngstock - the things that experienced horsepeople fall into...try and be good and specialise in Parelli etc...which sort of gets looked down on by others, as it as though they are trying to be good at something without the years of experience and understanding it takes...

I dont think I am making much sense but I know what I mean!
 
Yawn, rolls eyes, yet another 'lets slag off NH' post. I no longer feel the need to justify the methods I use. I will, however, say that I don't use a lasso or a giant ball or anything else like that. Neither do I need to use a whip, spurs, martingale, draw reins etc to get a result.
 
In my humble opinion, I think that a horse is a horse at the end of the day and it has little to to with NH or Parelli. Most people know their horses and how they work and common sense seems to be the best way forwards I reckon.

Horses do things for a reason, sometimes they are really scared and not being naughty and sometimes it's the other way round. A good horseman (or woman!) will be able to tell the difference and deal with it in the appropriate way.

There is no justification for being cruel and I also feel that treating your horse/pony/foal like a toy can also be cruel.

Like I said, it tends to be common sense really!
 
I see some of the stuff touted around as NH by Parelli people and I despair! When you see a good natural horseman at work you might see them doing things a little differently, even using different equipment, but you shouldn't wonder what the point is. NH is all about common sense and having working horses. People like those I mentioned above are real old cowboys, they aren't about games.
It is a shame that some really good people are buried under the Monty/Parelli circus and hype. And they will stay there because their purpose in life is to work with horses and people and make a living, not to become a rich celebrity. They want to help people and horses to be confident, just like any other trainer. It's not something that you use if "conventional" methods don't work, to them it is the "conventional" method and a way of life.
Rant....
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The last demo I saw by a Monty person was a nightmare. As far as I could see it was a demo by someone who was basically scared of the horse, for people who might also be scared of horses. The result was a scared horse in the round pen, and yet so many watching blindly believed what they were told by the trainer, not the evidence of their eyes. How sad and frustrating, but I guess that's how hype works.
 
I have to add that not only are NH/Parelli etc misunderstood by non-practitioners (is that the term?) but so are the BHS exams....
I think there's room for any method that works and keeps your horse and you safe and happy.
S
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Yawn, rolls eyes, yet another 'lets slag off NH' post. I no longer feel the need to justify the methods I use. I will, however, say that I don't use a lasso or a giant ball or anything else like that. Neither do I need to use a whip, spurs, martingale, draw reins etc to get a result.

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In the nicest sense, how much of a result do you get?
 
I think there are good and bad bits to EVERY type of horsemanship, be it BHS, NH, Parelly or whatever. I truly believe the secret is to take the best bits of each and throw away the rest.
It makes me so mad that each group say you must do everything their way and won't budge. Why? There are no real correct methods for anything in horsemanship. Every horse and every person and therefore every combination are different, therefore there must be more than one correct solution.
Generally, I can;'t be bothered to argue with any of these groups, they are brainwashed and won't change their minds, so leave them to it.
 
and nor do i. i never use draw reins or a martingale. spurs are used to refine the aid at advanced level only, not to make a horse go forward, in my book. a whip is used very occasionally and lightly.
i wasn't slagging off NH, if you bothered to read my post at all.
 
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In the nicest sense, how much of a result do you get?

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A forward going, responsive horse with good manners on the ground as well as ridden and as a result of being asked and encouraged not nagged and 'broken'.
It always amazes me when someone asks a question on this forum about a badly behaved horse - the majority (not all mind) of answers usually revert to placing some gadget on the horse to solve a problem. NH tends to treat the cause of the problem first and not mask it with a stronger bit, flash noseband, martingale etc.
 
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