Alternatives to Equest Pramox for all-round worm treatment

[Penguinboots]

Hello - I haven't posted here in donkeys years, but I have just taken a lovely mare on loan and I could do with some worming advise!

Her owner has had her since Feb and has never wormed her. I've just done a wormcount and her result was 1000 epg (so quite high up on the 'medium' scale) - the people at the labs recommended I worm with Equest Pramox to treat everything, but having run a search on here I'm a little bit wary!

Are there any alternatives to Pramox that don't carry such a high risk of colic? Would worming with Equitape combined with something like Equimax be safer? Or am I just being a paranoid new mum?!

I'm new to all this as I've only ever shared in the past - so any advise will be much appreciated!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Hmmm, difficult one this. How old is the mare??

Appreciate its difficult as she's not yours and you don't want to take a risk. However as she's not been wormed since February and her worm count is quite high, I'd be inclined to ask the owner if they're happy for her to be Pramoxed and at least then you'll know the job's been done effectively.

Sorry can't advise about other worming combinations; I'd be inclined to ask your vets - explain your concerns re. colic and see what they suggest??

 

[FairyLights]

best thing is to consult your vet. maybe 5 day panacur guard followed by equitape for tapeworm would be suitable.

 

[yaffsimone1]

I had previously been using Equest / Pramox until my mare got a bad case of pin worm and I found out Equest / Pramox doesn't treat Pin worm. She is now on Eraquell (ivermectin) which does treat pinworm and Equimax with the added Praziquantel for tapeworm.....seems to work at the moment but will I probably change next year

 

[yaffsimone1]

Also as the other post said 5 day Panacur guard is always a good start, but recommendation is to leave horse in for those 5 days :-(

 

[cambrica]

I would also suggest 5 day panacur. Pramox is a very harsh wormer (imo) and if she has a higher worm burden the effects of that with pramox can cause colic.
I lost my beloved mare last year from acute colic - the evening before she had been given pramox. We found her early the following morning in a dreadful state and I hate to think how long she had been like it. Even now I'm not 'over it'
Now I know that she wasn't burdened with worms, we have a careful worming regime and subsequent worm counts on her fieldmates are very very low. Possibly it was not connected but the research I found out after suggested otherwise. I would NEVER use that product again!
Use the Panacur 5 day then have a worm count done in 3 weeks or so.

 

[Penguinboots]

Thanks everyone. I'll have a chat with the owner and the vet - looks like the 5 day Panacur might be the safer option.

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite - she's 4.

cambrica - I'm so sorry to hear about your mare - how horrible for you

 

[starryeyed]

I'd also recommend the 5 day Panacur - we've had awful experiences with Pramox, and while I understand some people get on with it fine, I've been put off for life! We used it once on all 3 of our horses, all were healthy with no "problems" and all were on a proper worming programme. 2 colicked very seriously, we thought we were going to lose them - and one became extremely ill and wouldn't eat / drink for a week, had to have constant vet visits to get water into him. I find it hard to believe that it was coincidence! I think that while it's a very effective wormer, it's just far too strong for some horses. We haven't had anything like that happen with any other wormer, and definitely won't be using it again x

 

[Clodagh]

I use Pramox and have had no problerms but I understood that panacur 5 day is useless now as the worms are resistant to it?

 

[Izzwizz]

Equvalan Duo (sp) is a broad spectrum wormer which also covers tapeworm. I have used this in the past with no problems, have also used Equest Pramox too without a problem.

 

[moana]

Don't use Pramox alongside Equitape. You can use Equest and Equitape together.
You can also use Eqvalan Duo or Equimax
Many horses have a resistance to Panacur 5 day

 

[cambrica]

Eqvalan Duo is another I use with no problems.
You only need to Google 'Equest Pramox Colic' to see that there are real concerns regarding the number of cases of colic directly after use, it doesn't seem like a minority to me but fairly common. Maybe it had nothing to do with Maddie's death, maybe it did and if so that imo is one horse too many.

 

[FairyLights]

I use Pramox and have had no problerms but I understood that panacur 5 day is useless now as the worms are resistant to it?

no its not useless. some red worm populations are resistant to fenbendalole [panacur]. the only way to know if they are resistant or not is to worm count then use the product and then worm count again. if only a small reductuon in worm burden then the worms are resistant. However, even with resistant populations the kill rate will still be approx 40% of the burden.
I use panacur as a wormer and alternate on a 12 month basis with strongid-p [pyrantel embonate]. I alsdo worm count for 2 reasons, 1. to see if they need wormimg in the first place and 2, to test efficacy of the drug ie to see if it is working or not.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Speak to your vet, they are usually very good at advising and wiling to chat for free.
I use Pramox and have never had a problem, maybe I've been lucky.
How knowledgable is the owner? Will she be able to advise? Having not wormed in that long I'd be inclined to suspect not.

 

[Borderreiver]

The reason for suggesting E Pramox is that this horse has a medium/high redworm count and unknown history re tapes cover. The SQPs at the lab will have inquired as to the horses age, condition etc and based the recommendation on that. If you don't like to use a dual wormer then plain Equest and a separate dose of Equitape will give the same cover.
It's no good using something like Eqvalan or Equimax on this occasion as they won't treat all stages of redworm.
You might use 5 day Panacur then Equitape which in theory will give the correct cover, but if there are a lot of resistant worms (quite likely) then it won't do the job. If you decide to go this route then retest 10 days after the last day of Panacur to make sure the count is right down. Some of the retests after Panacur show little reduction and sometimes an increase.
If in doubt phone the lab for further advice.

 

[Penguinboots]

Thank you again everyone - I'm learning a lot about worming!

How knowledgable is the owner? Will she be able to advise? Having not wormed in that long I'd be inclined to suspect not.

Hmm, I'm inclined to agree with you there, poiuytrewq. But that's another story..! A chat to the vet will probably be more worthwhile.

(Very numpty question: can you call vets for advise on weekends? Her vet is an independent vet rather than a practice)

If you don't like to use a dual wormer then plain Equest and a separate dose of Equitape will give the same cover.

Thanks for such an informative reply, Borderreiver! If I were to do this, should I separate the doses by a few days?

 

[maisie06]

I had previously been using Equest / Pramox until my mare got a bad case of pin worm and I found out Equest / Pramox doesn't treat Pin worm. She is now on Eraquell (ivermectin) which does treat pinworm and Equimax with the added Praziquantel for tapeworm.....seems to work at the moment but will I probably change next year

You will need to treat encysted redworms in winter (late nov/early dec) as your current plan has no treatment for these and they are not detectable by counts.

 

[JillA]

Who did your egg count? If it was one of the independent labs like Westgate or Abbey, they are usually very knowledgeable and may be able to recommend a suitable wormer

 

[Penguinboots]

Who did your egg count? If it was one of the independent labs like Westgate or Abbey, they are usually very knowledgeable and may be able to recommend a suitable wormer

It was Westgate who recommended Pramox to me - I might give them another ring just to voice my concerns. They did seem very knowledgeable!

 

[Penguinboots]

UPDATE: I've just heard back from the lovely people at Westgate.

They've suggested that I start with a double dose of Strongid-P to treat tapeworm and to make a start on the redworm, and then give plain Equest in two weeks to tackle the rest of the redworm and the encysted stages.

Thought it would be worth sharing in case anyone else finds themselves in the same situation!

 

[HBM1]

Definitely support what masie06 said about the encysted red worms. .please don't forget about those!

 

[Borderreiver]

UPDATE: I've just heard back from the lovely people at Westgate.

They've suggested that I start with a double dose of Strongid-P to treat tapeworm and to make a start on the redworm, and then give plain Equest in two weeks to tackle the rest of the redworm and the encysted stages.

Thought it would be worth sharing in case anyone else finds themselves in the same situation!

That's great and of course to satisfy the other contributors encysted redworms are covered in that plan. There are usually different ways to do things, asking knowledgeable people gets you the answer you need, for your horse in his situation. Some of you may recognise that I am Gill owner of the lab, but the advice you were given comes from my fantastic team.

 

[FairyLights]

Bordereiver I understood that a double dose of Strongid-P is for tapeworm control as well as eliminating red worm etc at the same time.
However I think it only kills 2 of the 3 species of tapeworm and that Equitape kills the 3 types of tapeworm but not other types of worm so if using that some other drug needs to be used eg Equest. Is this correct?

 

[Borderreiver]

Almost! It's complicated though by the level of praziquantel in the different products.

Strongid is pyrantel, an old drug which treats the most common horse tapeworm plus, as you say, has some effect on adult stages of redworm.

The other tapeworm product is praziquantel but look at the variations in amounts in the various wormers. Equimax has the most effective dose, to treat all three horse tapeworms, plus of course ivermectin to treat redworm. The drug company patented the amount so no-one can copy it exactly! In the interest of horse welfare? I think not.

Equitape has a lower dose of the drug and only treats the most common tapeworm. As it is a narrow spectrum product it has no other use, but is never the less very handy if you only want to target that worm. Used with a separate dose of Equest for all stages of redworm, it is even more useful.

It makes sense to alternate the two drugs if you are concerned about resistance, which we should all be.

 

[McW]

I would really recommend intelligent worming, my horse has a burden he came like that and is quite young and I did try to address it myself but failed - it was coming down but stabilised sround 1000. Pramox will only be of full value if the horse is of average condition or above, if its poor the pramox won't work for the 13 weeks as I believe the chemicals live in the muscle of the horse. You also want to worm count before the duration of the wormer is up and see where you are. IME 1000> is a long term commitment to getting rid. Give them a call my program works out pretty much the same if I did all the worm counts and wormers on my own. Mine started at 2400 and is now down to 500. Hopefully it will continue to come down!

 

[Borderreiver]

Really? We get a lot of their customers at the lab!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Really? We get a lot of their customers at the lab!

I use Intelligent worming and have done for over 3 years with no complaint. What is your point apart from inferring that the competition isn't as good as you?

 

[peaceandquiet1]

I am another whose pony had a serious colic the day he was wormed with Pramox. The vets played it down but I an sure it was linked.

 

[Penguinboots]

That's great and of course to satisfy the other contributors encysted redworms are covered in that plan. There are usually different ways to do things, asking knowledgeable people gets you the answer you need, for your horse in his situation. Some of you may recognise that I am Gill owner of the lab, but the advice you were given comes from my fantastic team.

I must say that I've been really impressed with the level of service you and your team provide (although I've never used another lab, so I've got nothing to compare it with!) The results were in super-fast and my enquiry was answered very quickly - thank you!

Being a first time horse 'loaner' is pretty stressful (don't get me wrong though - I love it!), but services like this do take some of the worry away

 

[scewal]

I used Paramox last time. My mare now has very deep grooves in her hooves corresponding with this wormer.
I had a worm count done last week, came back at 2250!!! What a shock, so she has just finished 5 day panacur and will re do a worm count 10 days time.