Am at at loss, very disheartened :0(

[Kelly1982]

I will try and keep this as short as poss, a few years back my horse started backing off jumps, was a bit concerned so had saddle checked. Turned out saddle didn't fit at all, despite regular checks from another saddler and new saddler was shocked she hadn't tried to kill me!!

While we was looking for a new saddle I decided to get the Physio. Physio was also shocked my mare hadn't tried to kill me as she said she was in a lot of pain. Had compensated so much that now she was breaking down!! I felt awful!!! She hadnt given me any signs at all!!

She then had a fair few months off work, then was brought back in slowly. Since then though every time she is brought back into harder work her back goes again!!!

Decided enough was enough and took her to vets. After X-rays vet said 2 vertibrea were inflamed so gave her a steroid injection and said I shouldn't get any further problems.

Whilst doing flexion tests my horse trotted up lame!!! Turns out she also has mild changes to her navicular bone but vet has assured me its not navicular, just general wear and tear and not to worry. But put pads on her just to ease the pressure from her tendons. This then made my horse lame so we decided to go back to normal shoes where she came sound again. Gave her a week off to adjust to normal shoes again then started work!!! After a week she was back lame again!!!

The snow came the next day anyway so she ended up staying in with a couple of hours turn out a day and she came sound again within 2 days.

Today I decided to ride, just a plod round the block for change of scenery. Tacked up in stable, walked off to get hat and tabard then stopped to quickly chat to someone a few feet from my stable. All if a sudden my mare lept 10ft in the air, broncing like mad, throwing herself against all for Walls before she broke through her chain and bronced across the yard.

I caught her and she was shacking!! Walked her around to calm her down and she was quite obviously lame behind!! She didn't settle again til saddle came off. Now it looks like she has put her pelvis out!!!

I'm going to call the vet Monday but I'm completely at a loss what to do now??

Vet did mention tildren but for her front feet but I'm more concerned about the problem in her back!! The steroid injections obviously haven't worked.

And before anyone asks she def didnt spook!! She only does this if her back is hurting and I was watching her the whole time.

 

[Oberon]

Shoes off.

Check for ulcers.

Look at diet.

My reasons for these suggestions;

Body issues, tendon issues and hoof balance go hand in hand.

Chronic pain breeds ulcers.

If there is 'wear and tear' on the navicular bone - how do you think that's going to end in the long run?

 

[Copperpot]

No advice i'm afraid but I am taking my horse for x ray on back next week with a view to cortisone injections too. Like you I have had physio out and many saddle fittings and new saddles over past 3 years. I really hope you get it all sorted. X

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'd be tempted to ask for a 2nd vet opinion. I'm not sure how lameness after a flexion test translated into 'wear & tear of navicular bone' although I can see that it could highlight a back problem.
Can you find a vet that does acupuncture? MY IDx responded very well to it after completely uncharacteristically bucking me off on the road.

 

[maggiesmum]

Shoes off.

Check for ulcers.

Look at diet.

My reasons for these suggestions;

Body issues, tendon issues and hoof balance go hand in hand.

Chronic pain breeds ulcers.

If there is 'wear and tear' on the navicular bone - how do you think that's going to end in the long run?

^^^^ This!

If there are changes to the navicular bone then you can pretty much guarentee theres soft tissue damage too!
And with explosive outbursts I'd definitely be checking for ulcers!

 

[Kelly1982]

I have been debating having her shoes off after reading stuff on here but as usual farrier and vet are dead against it so decided to go with what they suggest until insurance money runs out and then go down the barefoot root.

Didn't think bout ulcers as never known a horse with them but makes sense. Will suggest this took vet. Anything I should be looking out for???

Her diet just consists off hi-fi and conditioning mix. She was on sugar beat but stopped this when it kept freezing. She is also has ad lib hay and is turned out 7 hours a day. In summer she is out 24/7 and is taken off hard feed.

I am very worried bout her changes turning into navicular which is why I think the vet suggested tildren as she said it will stop bone developement and will also help her back but wanted to try shoeing first

 

[Kelly1982]

A few liveries have suggested a 2nd opinion before the insurance money runs out as we are already £2000 in!!! She is only insured up to £5000.

Also they did X-rays, nerve blocks and MRI scans on her front feet to come to the conclusion about the wear and tear to her navicular bone. It wasn't just a flexion test. Sorry hard to explain everything in detail on here

 

[Oberon]

I have been debating having her shoes off after reading stuff on here but as usual farrier and vet are dead against it so decided to go with what they suggest until insurance money runs out and then go down the barefoot root.

Didn't think bout ulcers as never known a horse with them but makes sense. Will suggest this took vet. Anything I should be looking out for???

Her diet just consists off hi-fi and conditioning mix. She was on sugar beat but stopped this when it kept freezing. She is also has ad lib hay and is turned out 7 hours a day. In summer she is out 24/7 and is taken off hard feed.

I am very worried bout her changes turning into navicular which is why I think the vet suggested tildren as she said it will stop bone developement and will also help her back but wanted to try shoeing first

It's common for vets and farriers to be dead against removing the shoes - but how much good have they done so far?

Tildren is something that will either work or not - but then wear off.

Getting the hoof balance right will stop the wear and tear in it's tracks. I promise you that - it's been seen time and time again. If you develop the caudal hoof, the navicular bone and the DDFT will be able to do their thing properly. Incidences of navicular in barefoot horses is almost nil - there's a reason for that

I'd be inclined to take the shoes off and give her six months off (apart from walking inhand) to give nature a chance to fix her before you spend any more money. But make sure she is trimmed every six weeks by a good hoof care provider who understands to trim sympathetically.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'd stop feeding her anything except hay and grass. I had a VERY explosive mare who was eventually diagnosed with food sensitivity to cereals and molasses. We have one now who can't tolerate alfalfa in even small amounts.

 

[Laafet]

It's common for vets and farriers to be dead against removing the shoes - but how much good have they done so far?

Tildren is something that will either work or not - but then wear off.

Getting the hoof balance right will stop the wear and tear in it's tracks. I promise you that - it's been seen time and time again. If you develop the caudal hoof, the navicular bone and the DDFT will be able to do their thing properly. Incidences of navicular in barefoot horses is almost nil - there's a reason for that

I'd be inclined to take the shoes off and give her six months off (apart from walking inhand) to give nature a chance to fix her before you spend any more money. But make sure she is trimmed every six weeks by a good hoof care provider who understands to trim sympathetically.

While I agree with some of what you say here, I cannot agree with the claim that getting foot balance right with stop wear and tear in its tracks, I'd like to see the literature that says that. I agree it will help but it cannot stop it.

FWIW regardless of whether you take the shoes off or not the 6 months out in the field is likely to be beneficial. However you will probably be over your year limit for claiming on the insurance for further investigation or treatment.

 

[Kelly1982]

Oberon - I'm just a bit worried about doing that at this point in time purely because we are already 5 months into treatment and the insurance company will only pay out for a year so if I give her 6 months off and then that doesn't work, I won't be able to go back to the vets for more treatment. That's why I was goin to go with what the vets said for now and then go barefoot and rest as the last straw so to speak. I can totally see what benefits taking her shoes off would do though and have seen it on another horse already down the yard.

Pearlsasinger - I don't think its her feed causing the explosions. I've owned her 6 years and this was only her 3rd explosion. Both other times turned out to be her back. Plus seeing her afterwards she was def in pain

 

[Tinypony]

Go and have a look at the Rockley Farm website, maybe ring them for a chat, they are very helpful.
Anyone who doesn't understand the dramatic improvements that their care can make to horses with "navicular" might find it interesting to look there as well.

I wonder if you can get treatment with them paid for under insurance? If not, then it can't be very long now before that changes.

Kelly, I've just noticed you are in Kent. If anywhere in the sort of Gravesend/Dartford/Maidstone-ish triangle pm me. I have an absolute barefoot expert coming to me on 2nd March. It wouldn't cost much to get a second opinion from her if she can fit you in.

 

[samlf]

but what if in a year shes been so ruined by all the remedial treatments and it has turned into navicular, you try the barefoot route and she is only field sound? surely you owe it to your horse to try and get pain free, not keep her suffering for another 6 months?! plus insurance could pay for rockley rehab

 

[Oberon]

While I agree with some of what you say here, I cannot agree with the claim that getting foot balance right with stop wear and tear in its tracks, I'd like to see the literature that says that. I agree it will help but it cannot stop it.

FWIW regardless of whether you take the shoes off or not the 6 months out in the field is likely to be beneficial. However you will probably be over your year limit for claiming on the insurance for further investigation or treatment.

Other than Dr Bowker's research I don't have literature, sorry.

Just written off navicular horses all over the world, back doing their thing again after taking the shoes off has sorted out what traditional treatments haven't.

The wear and tear is due to lack of development to the back of the hoof and it's internal structures. This makes the horse land toe first and this puts pressure on the tendons and the navicular bone.

I am saddened and frustrated that it's always the last resort.

A poster on here took her navicular horse BF as a first resort and it's now sound after 13 weeks.....

Obviously the OP's horse has a few issues and no actual diagnosis of navicular - but I know what my first response would be if it were my horse either way.

 

[Tinypony]

Kelly, what have you got to lose in getting a second opinion and at least knowing what an alternative approach would involve? About £50 that may or may not make a difference to your horse's future. The vet and farrier are dead against taking the shoes off - that's fine, that's their professional opinion. You however are the owner and have the right to investigate other professional opinions if you want to.
If anyone told me one of my horses had "navicular" I really wouldn't hesitate. The Rockley approach would be my first course of action, I'd only go down more intrusive options if that failed.
Call me Barefoot Taliban if you like, I've seen the results.

 

[SusieT]

vet opinion before you do any of those things. No point in asking a vet to look at a horse newly unshod for a condition taht has been going on. Let the vet see the horse in its current state to see where the problem is coming from. Especially as if you suddenly change everything you have no idea what is actually happening. If vet can't get to the cuase, get a referral she sounds like an unhappy hors.e

 

[SusieT]

This horse is not yet a candidate for trying alternative treatments. Until it has had a diagnosis there is no point int hrowing treatment at it and it could make things worse. Please go logically and find a diagnosis before trying random things.

 

[devonlass]

. Incidences of navicular in barefoot horses is almost nil - there's a reason for that

Is that true?? Sorry don't mean you would make it up,but is it proven fact so to speak??

Sorry for hijacking there BTW,just interested.


Have to say OP my sensible side say's exhaust all options with the vet treatement first whilst insurance will cover it.The barefoot option will still be there later on,although as others have said there may be further damage by then.

That prob as much help as a chocolate teapot,sorry

 

[SusieT]

'Getting the hoof balance right will stop the wear and tear in it's tracks. I promise you that - it's been seen time and time again. If you develop the caudal hoof, the navicular bone and the DDFT will be able to do their thing properly. Incidences of navicular in barefoot horses is almost nil - there's a reason for that
'
Remember never take anything at face value-I have yet to see any evidence to back any of these impressive statements up. Just because barefoot shout loudest at the minute,doesn't mean their way is the best. (And amazingly they can offer this advie without having any idea about your indiviudal horses conformation/situation)

 

[SusieT]

Having read through I missed it had had MRI etc. It hasnt actually got a diagnosis of navicular has it? The back is probably not related then? I would suggest as you have had a thorough work up, unless it was at one of the big referral hospitals that you get your mare referred. 3K left in insurance is not a lot and no point wasting it with a vet who has tried all they can and hasn't got an answer, get a second opinion definitely. If they can't find an answer, turn her away for osme dr. green (and yes..that would be withotu shoes unless she cant cope without). There must be something gonig on and ulcers is a valid idea with pain (girthing can cause pain).

 

[jeeve]

I also had success with acupuncture with my ISH, worth a try for pain related issues, have used it myself and it was great.

 

[Tinypony]

Can I just say that I wasn't suggesting using an "alternative treatment". I suggested getting a second opinion on the hooves - as the vet has already decided there is early navicular and started thinking in terms of adding padding. IF op were to decide to change her hoofcare she and the trimmer would work with the vet and possibly the farrier if he wasn't too anti. Complementary treatment, not alternative.

When we are getting medical treatment that we are unsure about, and that doesn't seem to be solving the problem, we have no problems seeking a second opinion. Why should that be different with horses?

Obviously it's Op's call, I'm throwing up an idea because she sounds at her wit's end.

 

[maggiesmum]

'Getting the hoof balance right will stop the wear and tear in it's tracks. I promise you that - it's been seen time and time again. If you develop the caudal hoof, the navicular bone and the DDFT will be able to do their thing properly. Incidences of navicular in barefoot horses is almost nil - there's a reason for that
'
Remember never take anything at face value-I have yet to see any evidence to back any of these impressive statements up. Just because barefoot shout loudest at the minute,doesn't mean their way is the best. (And amazingly they can offer this advie without having any idea about your indiviudal horses conformation/situation)

Maybe Oberon should have said it ill stop 'excessive' wear and tear in its tracks?

What exactly would you like to see? How many horses that were very lame and the vets only suggestion was PTS that are now barefoot and sound would you like us to show you? We have plenty of them between us.
Incidentally I have yet to see any evidence that remedial shoeing actually does what it claims to do for navicular without any long term damage.

 

[Miss L Toe]

In view of the relatively narrow time scale, ideally, I would send to Rockley [if they feel they can help] is there any reason why drugs can't be used after or during their re-hab.
I would not expect any conventionally trained vet or your farrier to do anything other than dig in with their inculcated ideas, particularly as it is going to be good for their bank balance.
I know this is cynical, but I think you will struggle to get veterinary approved treatment until they have exhausted the conventional treatments.
Will the insurance company accept your recommendation, as it looks like a full £5K in this year either way.
I feel that sometimes, we look for one or more particular symptoms, when the treatment might be the same regardless of the illness, and one problem may lead to another, and so on.
If, for example, you send to Rockley for barefoot re-hab, then you have at least got the feet balanced, and the limbs strengthened, presumably physio can be done on site, and if this helps other symptoms then you have gained, if there is no improvement to other symptoms, then you still have Tildren etcetera to try, and within the insurance timescale.
Just taking off the shoes at home, is not the same as intensive re-hab, which is carried out under supervision by experienced staff.
I do hope this will give you some encouragement, some people will say you are grasping at straws, but you have followed vets advice so far and have got nowhere, I think this might show you there is light at the end of the tunnel, and you have done the best you can for the mare.

 

[Wagtail]

The way she exploded under saddle is indicative of a severe back problem such as kissing spine. I am unsure what you mean about two vetebra being inflamed. Usually you cannot see the vetebra on most vets xray machines as they are too deep, only the spinous processes show up clearly, and if they look inflamed it is usually because they are touching and rubbing on one another. Steroid injections very rarely work for this condition, or if they do it is only for a few days or couple of weeks. I would get her referred to one of the equine hospitals such as Rossdales. I agree, that the main problem seems to be the back. This can cause lameness too.

ETA I would not remove her shoes until after she has seen by the hospital as it could cause temporary soreness that could mask her problems.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I agree with Wagtail, that there probably is a mega back problem, but how significant is it that she went so long without showing these extreme symptoms, I would investigate the potential problems and outcomes before sending to Rossdales, but frankly you have reached the end of the road with local veterinary knowledge.
You can start feeding a supplement for ulcers straight away and see if there is any improvement, vets may prescribe under the insurance, without another call-out.

 

[millitiger]

If the horse was mine i would be pushing for referral to a lameness specialist before making any changes.

imo she needs a full work up to diagnose exactly what is wrong including full body scans etc.

Once you know what the actual cause is, you can look at how you want to try and fix it, and that is where you can look at barefoot and/or alternative treatments- but first thing is to find out exactly what is wrong.

 

[SusieT]

miss l toe-if this horse has kising spine or vertebral malformation exactly how do you propose taking her shoes off will help ???

 

[SusieT]

'
Maybe Oberon should have said it ill stop 'excessive' wear and tear in its tracks?

What exactly would you like to see? How many horses that were very lame and the vets only suggestion was PTS that are now barefoot and sound would you like us to show you? We have plenty of them between us.
Incidentally I have yet to see any evidence that remedial shoeing actually does what it claims to do for navicular without any long term damage. '
yes that is exactly what I would like to see. With details of what was wrong, how barefoot improved it and I would like it written by scientists and peer reviewed rather than put on a website and claimed as gospel or just because people believe. Randomly telling people to pull shoes without any appreciation of how hard that will make diagnosisng when the horse is potentially sore and masking the more chronic problem is an example of how people really don't understand medical horse problems but like to think going 'natural' will solve it..

 

[SusieT]

'
Incidentally I have yet to see any evidence that remedial shoeing actually does what it claims to do for navicular without any long term damage. ' I have and have posted it on here before. It's not a great prognosis but at least it has been studied.