Am I being unreasonable

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topclass

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Dont post a lot but I think I need to get other optinions please. I run a small livery I have a few liveries on but lots of land I do winter turnout which is great but some of the liveries think that I can grow grass in winter moan when their horses turn it to mud and I mean mud by running up and down like a looney moan that its cruel to keep them in and what am i going to do about it, secondly horses stayed out with nice weather so I personally left my own out till 10ish then was up early the next morning about 5.30am did my jobs chucked them out etc then got a message asking if mine were out all night why werent his??? Now because of the horrid weather Ive asked for all the horses to come into tonight and then get told its' only rain and they have rugs on and that's is not in their best interest to bring them in.

My opinion is I run the yard if you dont like it leave. you trash the land them moan like buggery about YOUR horses wrecking it but it seems to be my fault and lastly I dont care if you ruin the land the horses will be in earlier at the end of the year rather than look after them now and they can stay out later. I just feel like shutting the yard down im fed up with being told/questioned about my actions on my land which I worked very hard to pay for and they dont have any respect for it or me at all. If these liveries leave then im shutting the yard ive had enought
 
Would it be worth having a 'sacrifice' paddock for winter and wet summers? There may be a need to give extra forage, which the owners wil have to pay for. We have our own land and use one part for winter and very wet (like now!) weather. Saves the horses having to come in and saves the grass.
 
our farmer at our place gives us our own paddocks if we choose to destroy it that's up to us :eek: I guess it depends what you have originally offered when these liveries appeared on the yard. If you offered 24/7 turnout during the summer months and restricted during the winter then you should stick to that and offer a sacrifice paddock. As a livery, I have moved onto a yard where they come in during the day in the summer, but if I had originally been offered 24/7 turnout I wouldn't be at all chuffed about having to bring in.
 
I have the opposite problem. My liveries all want theirs bringing in at the slightest hint of rain! My horses are the only ones out 24/7 come rain or shine. In the winter, I have a purpose built sand turnout enclosure in addition to the riding arena. The horses go out in it on a rota so they get only 4 hours out in the winter. No one seems to mind at all. However, mine are all full or part livery and so I guess they want to get the most work (from me) and feed and bedding for their money.
 
I would call a meeting and let everyone air their grievances there, BUT you state that YOU are the owner so your rules are THE rules. I think you would need a clause in your contract stating that it will be down to your judgement to make choices at anytime of the year as to whether the horses stay in or go out. If they don't like it, they can vote with their feet, you are sure to fill their space at a later time.
 
I don't really get the whole 'land is trashed' thing. In the past our fields have been part bog it has been that bad and every year we looked at it and said 'God it's ruined' but it never was - it ALWAYS flattend out and it always grows back. The bog patches were reseeded every other Spring and there has never been a problem. I think that YO/LO worry for no good reason. Yes, the land might look like ***** right now but why does that matter? Why does it worry you? Grass grows back.......
 
Billie - It depends on the land. There are different types of soil and not all of them grow grass back easily after a good trashing.
 
I have my own yard with a few liveries, all bar one full livery are on summer 24/7 turnout now and have been for some time. They have a stable to use if they choose to keep in for some reason but I do not think it fair to insist on this during the summer.

My own horses I do as I like with, I am here all the time so can get in for a day, a few hours or overnight with no real inconvenience to me. It is very different for a livery owner who may have plans that prevent them just being able to change routine for a day or two because of a bit of inclement weather .

The land will get a bit worse for wear but if there is plenty it can quickly recover, I also find keeping them out and in a routine they run around less and so do less damage overall.

I think that if you have liveries you either leave them to it within reason or you do full livery only and have total control over the management of your land.
 
Well after a short experiment, I'd certainly never have another livery - but that's another story!

I'd go for the sacrifice paddock myself. I certainly prefer to have my horses out 24/7 in Summer - it's less work for me and better for them.
 
I don't think you are being unreasonable, it really annoys me when people moan about the lack of grazing in the winter and its their fault because their horses have trashed the fields!

I agree if they don't like it they can move else where, because I'm sure there aren't many yards that would be happy for their fields to be trashed all year round! its ok if you have enough grazing to keep moving them around but when you don't they have to accept what they are told to do!
 
I think it depends on what you promised when they moved there and how much land you have.
And I guess ultimately how much you need their money. If your not that worried, I would save yourself the heartache and give them their notice.
 
Billie1007 I think you need to do a bit more research!!

Land does not just 'flatten and grow back' by itself, it needs to be rolled and reseeded all of which cost.

Boggy fields look awful.

If the landowner gets any government subsidies such as SFP they will be cut/fined for having boggy fields.

Wrecking the fields in winter (but especially spring) ruins the new growth.

I could go on :D
 
I think it depends on what the liveries were told when they came to you....if your rules were clear then you are entitled to be fed up.

I was in a yard where they were brought in every time we had a little rain....I was not told this beforehand...I specifically asked and was told they had only ever restricted grazing when it was icy.
 
I have 8 stables and 20 acres they trash the winter ones which they pay more for should they choose to have winter turnout this extra money goes to pay for the fields being rolled, chain harrowed and reseeded which is every year on a regular basis along with damage the "fairies do" that no one admits too. This stupid man had had 2 fields already since beginning of May with this mares he moaned that I was being cruel in winter letting them stand in mud at the gateway and now the fact that his mare is standing shivering now. They all get told in summer weather permitting they can stay out but if the weather turns bad then they will need to come in and winter fields are there if they choose to have them it is not compulsary. I dont have enought land for them to keep wanting another field month after month its costing me a fortune last year alone I didnt make a penny in fact I was £8k in debt due to fencing, rolling, chain harrowing, school gate being smashed, stable doors being ripped off the hidges all my fault and then one stupid cow screaming at me cause I told her electric fencing she uses to section off her field the battery must have gone flat but that was my fault for not checking it:eek:

At the end of summer Ive had a chat with OH and were closing it that's if I survive that long and Ill never do it again.
 
8 on 20 acres should be easy enough to manage without problems, I have 12 boxes with 17 acres, in summer have had up to 15 on it, it is low lying clay so gets very wet in winter but rarely do they not get turned out.

My main problem is that there can be too much grass in spring and summer most are good doers and very settled in their groups or pairs. If turnout is individual I think this can cause problems as many will spend too much time fence walking or stood at the gateway waiting to come in. Mine chill out in different parts of their fields when not eating.

It is not a profitable way of life and if it causes too much hassle it is definitely time to call a halt, the returns are not enough to balance out the disruption to your enjoyment of your own property.
 
How do you divide the land up? You should easily be able to have enough paddocks that they can be properly rotated and rested, I would have thought?

You need to be clear on the rules, but TBH it sounds as though you also need to be clearer / firmer with the liveries so that they don't keep coming back with moans and niggles - once everyone knows where they stand, and it is clear that those are the rules and they are consistently applied, it should make life a lot easier, or at least give you rock solid ground if they do come to you with a moan.
 
topclass said:
Dont post a lot but I think I need to get other optinions please. I run a small livery I have a few liveries on but lots of land I do winter turnout which is great but some of the liveries think that I can grow grass in winter moan when their horses turn it to mud and I mean mud by running up and down like a looney moan that its cruel to keep them in and what am i going to do about it, secondly horses stayed out with nice weather so I personally left my own out till 10ish then was up early the next morning about 5.30am did my jobs chucked them out etc then got a message asking if mine were out all night why werent his??? Now because of the horrid weather Ive asked for all the horses to come into tonight and then get told its' only rain and they have rugs on and that's is not in their best interest to bring them in.

My opinion is I run the yard if you dont like it leave. you trash the land them moan like buggery about YOUR horses wrecking it but it seems to be my fault and lastly I dont care if you ruin the land the horses will be in earlier at the end of the year rather than look after them now and they can stay out later. I just feel like shutting the yard down im fed up with being told/questioned about my actions on my land which I worked very hard to pay for and they dont have any respect for it or me at all. If these liveries leave then im shutting the yard ive had enought
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Those words could have been written by me !

Exactly what happened to me and exactly why I will only do holiday or sick liveries now.

Reading through some of the replies it is so evident that the majority of horse owners have no idea of land management. No idea that land management is seasonal and weather dependant. No idea that farmers actually do understand land management and actually are capable of producing good grazing.

I finished having liveries when an owner annouced they were fed up with the muddy paddock they were using during a very wet May a few years ago and, in my absence, had moved their horses to fresh grazing in an adjoining field.

The horses were very pleased to move and had a good gallop round ---on a field closed for mowing grass. I will leave you to imagine what I said.
 
i make it clear in a written contract the turning out and bringing in times winter and summer and in cases of extreme weather conditions i will bring horses in hay and water them and owners will be contacted by text to say they are in and i vet any potential liveries to make sure we suit each others needs there are plenty of yards out there that are quite happy to let horses stand in muddy fields all through the winter and care not that they have no grass for the summer months let them go there i am very lucky that my liveries are like minded and we are often told how well are fields look your yard your rules a clean sweep comes to mind good luck
 
patterdale said:
Billie1007 I think you need to do a bit more research!!

Land does not just 'flatten and grow back' by itself, it needs to be rolled and reseeded all of which cost.

Boggy fields look awful.

If the landowner gets any government subsidies such as SFP they will be cut/fined for having boggy fields.

Wrecking the fields in winter (but especially spring) ruins the new growth.

I could go on :D
Click to expand...


Surely the OP can't mean that the WHOLE of her field is wrecked due to mud? I am thinking fence lines, gate ways etc. When the land dries out and the horses continue to patrol these spots the land flattens again. I agree that the quality in these spots doesn't remain year on year. I did make it clear that I am aware reseeding may have to take place in certain areas.

BUT - as a livery I would be paying a fee which includes field maintainence. My fee also includes turnout!
 
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But if you want the horses to make a mess of the fields then this 'fee' would be huge.

If liveries knew what it actually costs to clear up after horses, and they had to pay it, then the horses would be in when it was wet, end of.

I'm lucky in that I have plenty of land for mine to rotate on, but on a livery yard this often isn't possible.

AdorableAlice I agree COMPLETELY.
 
Consider myself told. I would just like to point out that I am a very reasonable livery that has no problem at all bringing my mare in when I am told she can't be out due to weather/land issues etc. I guess what I object to is the constant worry and discussion about grass, patches, boggy gates, will it flatten, will it need reseeding.... maybe.... maybe not. We used to have the same discussions every bloomin' year.

I guess OP it is your choice. They either do it or go.


Oh and Patterdale, consider yourself on my 'hate' list as you have your own land I am just a mere livery :(
 
topclass said:
At the end of summer Ive had a chat with OH and were closing it that's if I survive that long and Ill never do it again.
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Before throwing baby out with the bath water why not try having a yard meeting and explain to folks what your rules are and why you feel they are reasonable. Inform them of how much it costs to maintain severely poached land, fencing etc and let them know that you are fed up of the griping about the rules. Explain that at the end of the day it is your home as well as a place of business and you refuse to feel as though you need to defend your decisions, if they are not happy with them then they should feel free to move. Inform them that although they are welcome to discuss turnout etc with you they must remember that your decision is final and anyone arguing or moaning about it will be asked to leave.

Worst comes worst then things don't improve andyou end up where you are planning to be anyway, which is closing the yard.
 
Why are the horses charging about or patrolling up and down fence lines?

This suggests to me either not settled with their companions/ pacing because alone and cant settle or feel safe/ too small paddocks leading to poaching with not enough food.

Horses do trash ground as an owner of land and horses I accept that. However 8 on 20 acres should be easily manageable in terms of trashing/wet ground. Unless you are on heavy clay in which case you're screwed as soon as it rains with one shetland :p
 
20 acres is plenty to be able to sustain 8 horses with winter turnout during the day and 24/7 over the summer.

It's in your interest to maintain the land, so I'm suprised you change extra for this, and don't simply build the costs into your livery charges tbh.
 
my yard is not profit making we just get by and every one helps out by doing there bit to look after the grazing have had liveries in the past that have been quite happy to sit around drinking tea while there horses stand out round gateways chewing fences fighting fence walking in the driving wind and rain throughly miserable because its to early to get them in and they dont wont to mess there beds up but are happy to mess fields up and risk a vets bill sorry but not for me makes me appreciate my liveries in a big way
 
I've been on three yards this week (finding new yard). Two had no mud despite torrential rain here. Both have fields up hills or on the flat with a drop down to the yard itself so drainage is good. My current yard is at the bottom of a hill, clay, fields are virtually unmanaged and the YO has no rules re turn out. We ask, we're told to do as we please until something happens when he goes mental and threatens to close all fields for months.

I think you need to have a yard meeting, clarify the rules of turn out and explain exactly what you've spent and how you propose to save the fields. It's your property, your rules. Simple. Just be super clear and take no nonsense. :)
 
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