Am I expecting too much?

[Crugeran Celt]

Out walking my 7 month old springer/working cocker pup who it has to be said is very well behaved. Her recall is excellent and she walks off the lead to heel very well. We walked through a wooded area and there were two ladies infront of us with three dogs all lose, a large collie type, a small poodle and a terrier. we called our pup to heel and walked on. The collie realised we were about two hundred yards behind and stopped and laid down, his owners continued to walk on. As we got closer our pup trotted ahead and came nose to nose with the collie who immediately stood and starting chasing our pup back up into the woods, she was yelping very loudly and dropped to the ground whereby the collie got her on her back and was mouthing her neck, in all fairness he wasn't actually biting her. owners still did not turn although they must have been able to hear our dog. We called her, she wriggled to her feet and thankfully ran straight back to us with collie in pursuit. We put her on her lead and the collie ran after the owners. As we came out of the woods the two other dogs had run up to a couple having a picnic and were trying to steal their sandwiches. The owners immediately told us their collie was 'playing', i pointed out that it wasn't playing when it had frightened our pup. Lady immediately became very defensive and told me if i wasn't prepared for my pup to play with other dogs I should take it home and lock it up. I was furious and felt she had no control over any of her dogs. Was this acceptable and I was being too protective of the pup? Usually walk our dogs on the mountain by our home so only meet dogs we know so not really thought about it much but I would never allow my dogs that far away from me not knowing what they may be encountering.

 

[twiggy2]

Her dog probably was playing but that's not really the point, her dog does not sound like it was under control, yours did go up to it and initiate the hello though.
Often collies play by chasing, all of ours do with each other, one in particular can be very rough and ironically she was possibly the most socialised out of them all before we had her.
Spaniels can be wimps and run away screaming, it doesn't sound like yours is very confident and I would work on that.
Just sounds like the collie was too much for your pup and it's owner was not paying attention but like i say you allowed yours to initiate the hello.
6 of one and half a dozen of the other, it was an easily avoided situation.

 

[AmyMay]

I’m raging on your behalf. I hope you told her loudly and firmly to keep her f’ing dogs under control in future!!!!!! ????????????

edt For the most part I don’t agree with Twiggy’s post. The only thing I’d take issue with regarding your actions is not slipping your lead back on.

 

[skinnydipper]

IMO it is only play if both participants consent to the game.

 

[twiggy2]

I’m raging on your behalf. I hope you told her loudly and firmly to keep her f’ing dogs under control in future!!!!!! ????????????

edt For the most part I don’t agree with Twiggy’s post. The only thing I’d take issue with regarding your actions is not slipping your lead back on.

Slipping the lead back in would have avoided it all.
What do you not agree with?

 

[AmyMay]

Slipping the lead back in would have avoided it all.
What do you not agree with?

That the collie was playing and that the puppy is unconfident.

 

[twiggy2]

IMO it is only play if both participants consent to the game.

That is true but often my lurcher would initiate a game and then decide it was scary and run off, people do not always see the initiate to play they only see when thjngs have gone wrong and often pups and young dogs get overwhelmed in a split second

 

[twiggy2]

That the collie was playing and that the puppy is unconfident.

Fair enough, op does say the other dog was not biting and the pup must have run away to be chased.

 

[skinnydipper]

Out walking my 7 month old springer/working cocker pup who it has to be said is very well behaved. Her recall is excellent and she walks off the lead to heel very well. We walked through a wooded area and there were two ladies infront of us with three dogs all lose, a large collie type, a small poodle and a terrier. we called our pup to heel and walked on. The collie realised we were about two hundred yards behind and stopped and laid down, his owners continued to walk on. As we got closer our pup trotted ahead and came nose to nose with the collie who immediately stood and starting chasing our pup back up into the woods, she was yelping very loudly and dropped to the ground whereby the collie got her on her back and was mouthing her neck, in all fairness he wasn't actually biting her. owners still did not turn although they must have been able to hear our dog. We called her, she wriggled to her feet and thankfully ran straight back to us with collie in pursuit. We put her on her lead and the collie ran after the owners. As we came out of the woods the two other dogs had run up to a couple having a picnic and were trying to steal their sandwiches. The owners immediately told us their collie was 'playing', i pointed out that it wasn't playing when it had frightened our pup. Lady immediately became very defensive and told me if i wasn't prepared for my pup to play with other dogs I should take it home and lock it up. I was furious and felt she had no control over any of her dogs. Was this acceptable and I was being too protective of the pup? Usually walk our dogs on the mountain by our home so only meet dogs we know so not really thought about it much but I would never allow my dogs that far away from me not knowing what they may be encountering.

The owner of the collie was in the wrong, not you.

Polite dog greetings are where they sniff each other's noses first then butts.

Your pup going nose to nose was not an invitation to be bullied.

 

[skinnydipper]

Fair enough, op does say the other dog was not biting and the pup must have run away to be chased.

I don't think the pup running away was an invitation to be chased, it sounds as if she was terrified.

As we got closer our pup trotted ahead and came nose to nose with the collie who immediately stood and starting chasing our pup back up into the woods, she was yelping very loudly and dropped to the ground whereby the collie got her on her back and was mouthing her neck,

 

[twiggy2]

The owner of the collie was in the wrong, not you.

Polite dog greetings are where they sniff each other's noses first then butts.

Your pup going nose to nose was not an invitation to be bullied.

I don't think the pup running away was an invitation to be chased, it sounds as if she was terrified.

I never said it was playing nicely or politely, what I was saying is I don't think it was nasty, not all dogs know how to play or can't adjust their play to different dogs

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Our pup is usually very confident and as she is now our only dog, have always had two or more in the past, we have been walking her in areas we would not have taken our other dogs in order to socialise her and she has been an absolute star and has met and played with many dogs of all sizes and breeds with no issues. We always call her to heel when we get near any other dogs and put her lead on if the other dog is on a lead until we ask if it is ok for them to greet. As this dog was allowed to be out of sight of the owner and was off a lead i guess we assumed he would be friendly so allowed pup to greet, he jumped up and I think that gave her a fright so she ran. Just very glad her recall was good enough for her to come back to us and not keep running when she got from under him. I realise he was not aggressive but I think he was trying to be dominant and as Skinnydipper says playing has to acceptable for both dogs or its not playing. I agree she could be a wimp when we first took her out but she has been over that for many weeks now. I am just hoping that this will not set her back. I was just so taken aback by the owners total disregard for the way her dog behaved. The couple having he picnic were not impressed either as the owner made no attempt to call the other two back when they ran straight at them jumping up at their food. They came up to us after and said they were shocked by the owners total dismissal of our comments.

 

[skinnydipper]

I never said it was playing nicely or politely, what I was saying is I don't think it was nasty, not all dogs know how to play or can't adjust their play to different dogs

That is why people should pay attention to what their dog is doing when they are out.

It isn't unreasonable to expect the owner of a dog who is not playing nicely or politely to come and retrieve it PDQ and not to blame the owner of the innocent dog.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I would have been furious , and would have told the collie owner exactly what I thought . From how you describe it the collie was bullying not playing . Yes popping your pup on lead might have helped but I suspect the collie would still have approached .

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

The collie chased then attempted to dominate the younger dog - it was not playing it was dominating, a totally different thing.

Collie owner absolutely in the wrong for not even keeping an eye on all of their dogs by just chattering away whilst their dogs run riot by the sounds of it. Very irresponsible dog ownership. I think calling young dogs/pups who react in a frightened way to other dogs in their initial training and public outings being called 'wimps' if they become frightened is a very unfair and ignorant statement.

And why would anyone assume that if the pup was immediately put on the lead the situation would have been better, how is OP to judge a totally uncontrolled dog's reactions to her pup on or off lead in an instant? A lot of collies I have owned would actually have been far more likely to over step the mark with a dog on the lead than a loose one if not carefully supervised. They can be extremely sharp in my experience if not completely under control either at heel with their attention locked onto the owner/handler, or on a lead when approaching other unknown dogs.

 

[AmyMay]

Fair enough, op does say the other dog was not biting and the pup must have run away to be chased.

The thing is collies can be tricky, and temperamental. Having been around them for years I know how they can ‘switch’. One in particular had a default of pinning something to the floor as a show of dominance and woe betide the dog that tried to move when this was happening. So I don’t believe for a minute that this dog was trying to initiate any sort of play.

 

[Clodagh]

I would have been cross but I also would not allow my dog to approach a collie I didn’t know who was in ‘stalking’ mode.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I would have been cross but I also would not allow my dog to approach a collie I didn’t know who was in ‘stalking’ mode.

Yes I do have to agree that was probably not the best thing to allow the pup to do, but a lot of people are not aware that when a collie has 'dropped' it is possibly at its most reactive with instinct to chase and herd kicking in within a split second, not laying quietly and innocently for other dogs to happen along for a nice play time. I loved collies, bred them and did agility with them, but they are one of the breeds I would be most wary of if not impeccably trained. this one clearly was not unfortunately.

 

[Moobli]

I’d have been pretty annoyed. It could have all been avoided if the collie owner had been focusing on what her dog was doing rather than ignoring it. Collies will naturally lie, crouch, eye and stalk so are often intimidating to other breeds. I hope your pup is none the worse for her scary experience.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

I would have been cross but I also would not allow my dog to approach a collie I didn’t know who was in ‘stalking’ mode.

Yes I can see that now, in my defence he didn't have the usual stalking stance he just laid down but not with the intense interest in us or the pup. He was looking back at his owner then back towards us. We have many collies around us in the farms and to be honest i would always put her on the lead when walking near these farms as it's their territory but in my ignorance I assumed that an owner who would leave their dog off a lead and out of sight would be assured that their dog would not try to do anything other than greet other dogs, children or anything else it might come across with good manners. Won't make that mistake again. I have had a collie x myself and understand their quirky personalities. I think I feel annoyed at myself for not seeing what could happen but I am astounded that an owner could be so blase about their dog's personality and completely blind to their dog's behaviour.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I assumed that an owner who would leave their dog off a lead and out of sight would be assured that their dog would not try to do anything other than greet other dogs, children or anything else it might come across with good manners.

I am only just 3 months into first dog ownership but based on experience so far I would say, yup, probably is expecting too much (unfortunately!)

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

but I am astounded that an owner could be so blase about their dog's personality and completely blind to their dog's behaviour.

I know its unbelievable how some owners are far more dangerous than their dogs frankly.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I never said it was playing nicely or politely, what I was saying is I don't think it was nasty, not all dogs know how to play or can't adjust their play to different dogs

The real problem is that not all owners have got the wit to keep their dogs under control.We had a similar problem with an idiot with 2 loose terriers when ours, including the 7 month old pup were all on leads. Owner was very uncouth.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

I am only just 3 months into first dog ownership but based on experience so far I would say, yup, probably is expecting too much (unfortunately!)

We have owned dogs for 40 years and I must say I have never experienced this before. We usually stick to walking our dogs around our own area where we have great places to walk but as it's a bit isolated we meet few dogs and those we do meet are dogs and owners we are familiar with so have been taking this pup, as she is an only dog, to busier areas to socialise her. I think this is why it came as such a shock to me as all we meet near home, even though we know them have far more respect than this owner had.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

We come across lots of great owners but dodging off lead dogs with owners not paying attention/caring is frequently a mission where we are. Driving out to quieter places can help but still had problems even then. Ivy is always on lead/long line in public but I just dont like to take any chances of getting close to other dogs because so many owners seem careless, not just about other dogs/people but even with regard to their own dogs.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

We have owned dogs for 40 years and I must say I have never experienced this before. We usually stick to walking our dogs around our own area where we have great places to walk but as it's a bit isolated we meet few dogs and those we do meet are dogs and owners we are familiar with so have been taking this pup, as she is an only dog, to busier areas to socialise her. I think this is why it came as such a shock to me as all we meet near home, even though we know them have far more respect than this owner had.

We train ours NOT to play with random dogs. I don't think that is socialising. If you want your dog to have company either get another one yourself, or arrange tomeet a friend and introduce the dogs properly and encourage them to play together - that is socialising. Our dogs are trained to be dog neutral, except with dogs they know because they have been introduced.

 

[CorvusCorax]

We train ours NOT to play with random dogs. I don't think that is socialising. If you want your dog to have company either get another one yourself, or arrange tomeet a friend and introduce the dogs properly and encourage them to play together - that is socialising. Our dogs are trained to be dog neutral, except with dogs they know because they have been introduced.

This. All day.

The collie owner is in the wrong here. Don't give complete strangers and their dogs the benefit of the doubt.

We met an off lead retriever today. The owners could see me trying to engage my own dog and that I walking quickly in the other direction away from theirs and didn't think to call him back. Like, I was clearly working on something, have a bit of wit.....

 

[paisley]

Any off-lead dog with an missing or away-with-the-fairies owner gets a certain beady eyed stare from me (think Paddington Bear).
Generally, I find muttering 'Ar**h**e' as we go past helps. Not the actual situation, just my temper ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

FWIW all my dogs react badly to collie staring/stalking/creeping.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

We train ours NOT to play with random dogs. I don't think that is socialising. If you want your dog to have company either get another one yourself, or arrange tomeet a friend and introduce the dogs properly and encourage them to play together - that is socialising. Our dogs are trained to be dog neutral, except with dogs they know because they have been introduced.

We have always had more than one dog before but lost our two last year within a few months of each other so decided as we are now retired and home one would be ok as it would have company all day. We do walk with friends and family who have dogs and she is great with them, a little over excited when she first sees them but settles and walks well showing more interest in her surroundings than other dogs. all our other dogs have as you say been dog neutral not because we have trained them that way but I think its because they always have each other so are not interested in other dogs. Everyone has said because she is an only dog to try and mix her with as many other dogs as possible so that's what we have done and it's been great until yesterday.