Am i out of order?

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noodle_

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My little spaniel's ongoing saga as i kicked off at the vet's and told them i was putting a complaint in and this is why... (short version)!

he was ill on friday night.... not eating/lethargic and doing really weird stretching things... so after a bit of wtf? i took him the emergancy vets.... there was absolutely no blood/vomiting/diarrhoea etc until he reached the vets the he puked food a d that was that.

At the vets the vet saw him and reconed it was a bad bug or possible impaction of some kind..... painkiller injection and something else as the vet was more convinced it was a bug....NO X-RAYS/scans... (as she did and it states on his notes poss impaction) she had a feel - stated nothing and that was that.

Saturday morning he was very ill (quiet and refused to move) straight into our own vet;s - he was operated on immediately and pulled out a massive stone lodged.... he was very ill. I had to take him in my car with his drip still attatched back to vet's A (emergancy and out of hours ones).... to be cared for over the weekend. I was told by one vet he would probably be ok sun night.mon morning to go home

Full weekend was ups and downs -by Sunday morning he had diarrohea and the vet who i spoke too had suggested the refferal place (leahurst).... which i was happy with as tbh by this point i was sick to death of speaking to different vets and tbh i wasnt confident with the place.

Sunday night he was deemed safe not to go to leahurst and i picked him up monday morning to take him back to my own vets for the day of monitoring etc...

I picked up a puppy full of urine, pissing himself as he had no control of his bladder and very upset dog (crying and whining...i broke my heart)

I took him back to my vet's and demanded to speak to the vet in charge (my own vet) and immediately be reffered to leahurst (as i was expected to leave him at my vet's all day and take him back to this emergancy vets overnihgt - no way!)!

got the referal - took him to leahurst and the vet basically said prepare yourself for the worse - second surgery and loosing him. its bad.

he was in intensive care for 3 days, thank god not needing second surgery - just big complications to the initial surgery.....but unsurprisinly thanks to the fantastic care and vets at leahurst he is ok....



So that was the short version (honestly)!...but more inbetween that and i have the full notes of everything -

I had a phone call from the head vet nurse y'day who was looking into my complaint (this is from the emergancy vets) as i did tell them i was utterly pissed they missed a stone, the care given - the state when i picked him up and the fact id rather chew off my own arm than ever send mt dog there again

my own vet is very aware how pissed off i am and has been very nice (but diplomatic) as i did lay into him verbally a bit on monday

So now the head nurse wants to write me a letter.... i am NOT going after anyones blood/job! i need this written down as my dog could have died - it really is as simple as that...

so without being a complete arse about it as i do tend to rip into people where my dog's are concerned....how would you put this into a letter diplomatically or how would you handle it???

thanks for reading :o
 
Thanks CT - that was the short version.

He is ok now (thank god). thanks to leahurst..... (who are simply fantastic :) )

im actually back there next week due to wonky legs (dogs not me)! so will ask them for their full notes too and findings etc



i really do not want people sacked/disciplined (and yes i know on friday's case im well within reason to takeaction)....i just want people never to use this particular emergancy vets again

the vet nurses at MY OWN vets though are fantastic too - really caring people...cannot fualt them - just this "middle" vets
 
the 2nd vets is there emergancy place...!


i had to cart my dog, still on a drip, a couple of hours after his op, to the other vet's.... he was unconcious.

thats why id never do that again - any emergancy i will (and my vet knows this) go to leahurst....

never use the middle man so to speak....
 
Oh dear, I'm not sure that I know what to say, glad that everything at least seems to have ended well.


Even though what you've been through sounds terrible, I hope I would try to remember that all people can make mistakes in their job, regardless which profession they have, and even though that is of course a lot easier to say when the mistake hasn't happened to oneself, that is probably how I would approach the situation at first.
I would at least like to believe that a polite letter is more likely to not make people get their guards up.


On the other hand, I also firmly believe that not all people are suitable at their job, and there is actually one veterinarian in my city that I will never allow near my pets, she's good at her job in one way, it is just that she hasn't got any compassion for her patients, it is as if she doesn't believe that they can feel pain.


To me the question is, if you feel that this really is a matter of mistakes pointing towards someone actually not being suitable at their job or whether it is a matter of human mistakes, that of course shouldn't have happened in the best of worlds, but it still did?
 
FinnishLapphund said:
Oh dear, I'm not sure that I know what to say, glad that everything at least seems to have ended well.


Even though what you've been through sounds terrible, I hope I would try to remember that all people can make mistakes in their job, regardless which profession they have, and even though that is of course a lot easier to say when the mistake hasn't happened to oneself, that is probably how I would approach the situation at first.
I would at least like to believe that a polite letter is more likely to not make people get their guards up.


On the other hand, I also firmly believe that not all people are suitable at their job, and there is actually one veterinarian in my city that I will never allow near my pets, she's good at her job in one way, it is just that she hasn't got any compassion for her patients, it is as if she doesn't believe that they can feel pain.


To me the question is, if you feel that this really is a matter of mistakes pointing towards someone actually not being suitable at their job or whether it is a matter of human mistakes, that of course shouldn't have happened in the best of worlds, but it still did?
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please read first post! im NOT going after anyones blood!!! they have rung me and asked me to put it in a letter.....



i mearly want to state my points as to how it could have been handled better and why id never use their services again

they are human - and people make mistakes...but like i said this isnt the full overview....!


Im writing a letter (diplomatic)! to state why im not happy - as per their request.




thre is NO questioning anyones suitablility for the job AT ALL...... they are all good at what they do - im mearly suggesting some aspects of my dog's case could have been handled a little better!
 
noodle_ said:
the 2nd vets is there emergancy place...!


i had to cart my dog, still on a drip, a couple of hours after his op, to the other vet's.... he was unconcious.

thats why id never do that again - any emergancy i will (and my vet knows this) go to leahurst....

never use the middle man so to speak....
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My vets is the same place!! The vets emergency service is the same vets but on call say overnight but if I had to ring then take my dog in it would be to the main practice so there would be no reason to have to move the (unconcious dog) I can't believe you had to do that.:eek:

I think I would move vets totally to one that had emergency cover 24/7/52 and yes I would be reporting to RVC
 
i had to take a friends dog to leahurst when he slipped a disc and was paralysed. they were fantastic and he was there 2 weeks, came home walking (bit wobbly but really good care and treatment without surgery)
i dont understand the moving from your vet to the out of hours vet at night, so they dont look after overnight? to be honest I wouldnt like that, id want a vet that does its own out of hours with no movement if they need to stay in.
glad your dog is ok now. I have a working cocker spaniel and would be so stressed if this happened to her:mad:
just be very clear in your letter about what you feel was not sufficient care and what outcome you would like to see as a result. as long as you come across as a concerned cleint/owner your points should be taken on board and assessed properly. the vet should want to learn from what has happened. you can apologise for your anger if you want to, but say your point was valid and your anger should be understandable at that point in time.
 
Lovescobs said:
i had to take a friends dog to leahurst when he slipped a disc and was paralysed. they were fantastic and he was there 2 weeks, came home walking (bit wobbly but really good care and treatment without surgery)
i dont understand the moving from your vet to the out of hours vet at night, so they dont look after overnight? to be honest I wouldnt like that, id want a vet that does its own out of hours with no movement if they need to stay in.
glad your dog is ok now. I have a working cocker spaniel and would be so stressed if this happened to her:mad:
just be very clear in your letter about what you feel was not sufficient care and what outcome you would like to see as a result. as long as you come across as a concerned cleint/owner your points should be taken on board and assessed properly. the vet should want to learn from what has happened. you can apologise for your anger if you want to, but say your point was valid and your anger should be understandable at that point in time.
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i did appologise to my vet straight after my outburst but i was devastated (this was monday morning once i collected him) - he is a working cocker btw - same as.


a couple hours after i collected him monday and took him from "middle vets", to my vets - and then to leahurst ( i kid you not...)


(i also btw was given an appointment which annoyed me as i told my vet he IS an emergancy and emergancys do not have appointments...) i took him straight there regardless but we did have to wait which was upsetting for me tbh...he was pissing himself in the waiting room, started shaking and then collapsing and refusing to move....

We were seen shortly after but i have since (not really shocking...) lost a lot of faith in vet's... my dog's are my family (my babies as i cant stand human ones)! :D .... so any distress to them is heartbreaking.


and yes the moving him from one vet's to another is what saw me over the edge on that monday - there was no way in hell was i ferrying him back and too regardless.

i really really dont want to start pissing people off....but it really isnt on.
 
I agree, whenever I've had an emergency (with friends dog and in the past with a cat) I've made a call, got in the car and been seen straight away. I was at the vet recently with a cat and had to re arrange due to an emergency coming in (mine wasn't) I was more than happy with that, if it was me with the emergency id want to be the priority!
Write your letter whilst its fresh (so you don't forget any details) then put it down and re read it tomorrow or monday, you'll change some wording to make your points clearly and maybe have someone read it for you as well. then to be honest I'd see if there are any other vets around, (even if you don't have a problem with them you still can't leave your dog there overnight if needed) how far are you from leahurst, if you have to go there for emergency in future is it close enough?
I'll be checking my new vets emergency out if hours now as well. I moved in the summer and have just presumed my new vet would be the same as my last one. I'm going to check to be sure
 
noodle_ said:
please read first post! im NOT going after anyones blood!!! they have rung me and asked me to put it in a letter.....



i mearly want to state my points as to how it could have been handled better and why id never use their services again

they are human - and people make mistakes...but like i said this isnt the full overview....!


Im writing a letter (diplomatic)! to state why im not happy - as per their request.




thre is NO questioning anyones suitablility for the job AT ALL...... they are all good at what they do - im mearly suggesting some aspects of my dog's case could have been handled a little better!
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I did read your first post and I didn't believe that I suggested that you where after anyone's blood in my reply, I'm sorry that it made that impression, I was simply trying to figure out to what degree you believed that they had handled the situation wrongly.
Over here, even a complaint stating that you believe/have evidence for that someone is unsuitable to work as a veterinarian, is very, very unlikely to lead to someone actually losing their job.


On the other hand, you're also confusing me, you say that they're good at what they do, but you will never take your dog there again, so I will just leave this thread for tonight.
 
I now won't consider registering with a vets practice that outsources their out of hours cover after an experience similar to yours (nowhere near as bad though) . The last thing you need with a sick animal is dealing with vets who don't know you or your animal AND don't have access to their records.

As far as your complaint letter is concerned I would do two similar but separate letters and copy them to each vets stating the issues with each issue IE emergency vets about the misdiagnosis/dubious monitoring and your regular vets about the moving a post op, sick dog and their responsibility when they outsource their OOH to ensure that standards are maintained.

When writing a complaint it is usually more effective if you remove all emotion and list the problems in short, concise way (bullet points can work). It also helps if you write a paragraph at the bottom stating exactly what you would like to happen to resolve this IE you don't wish to see anybody losing their job but what further training/procedures will be put in place to avoid this happening again? And you would like the cost of the first visit refunded. For your own vets maybe state that you were shocked that an ill dog was moved to an OOH vets that had already misdiagnosed - what are they going to do in the future. Would you have been happier if your vets had sent the dog to Leahurst for the op since they couldn't care for him themselves post surgery? Depending on their response you can decide whether you change vets...

What I did many years ago when 99% of our local vets outsourced OOH to a practice I loathed was register one animal at a very, very expensive local animal hospital and have their vaccs done there (all other treatment for that dog and the other 5 pets at the time was done at my own reasonably priced vets that I liked) but it gave me access to their OOH service for emergencies...
 
FinnishLapphund said:
I did read your first post and I didn't believe that I suggested that you where after anyone's blood in my reply, I'm sorry that it made that impression, I was simply trying to figure out to what degree you believed that they had handled the situation wrongly.
Over here, even a complaint stating that you believe/have evidence for that someone is unsuitable to work as a veterinarian, is very, very unlikely to lead to someone actually losing their job.


On the other hand, you're also confusing me, you say that they're good at what they do, but you will never take your dog there again, so I will just leave this thread for tonight.
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vet nurses at my practise are brilliant (vets A).... the vets at the "middle" i have a issue with....

im just being careful how this thread goes as im well aware how this forum can turn things (im not suggesting you were but read threads in soapbox and newlounge and you will know what i mean!!)

:)

cbmcts said:
I now won't consider registering with a vets practice that outsources their out of hours cover after an experience similar to yours (nowhere near as bad though) . The last thing you need with a sick animal is dealing with vets who don't know you or your animal AND don't have access to their records.

As far as your complaint letter is concerned I would do two similar but separate letters and copy them to each vets stating the issues with each issue IE emergency vets about the misdiagnosis/dubious monitoring and your regular vets about the moving a post op, sick dog and their responsibility when they outsource their OOH to ensure that standards are maintained.

When writing a complaint it is usually more effective if you remove all emotion and list the problems in short, concise way (bullet points can work). It also helps if you write a paragraph at the bottom stating exactly what you would like to happen to resolve this IE you don't wish to see anybody losing their job but what further training/procedures will be put in place to avoid this happening again? And you would like the cost of the first visit refunded. For your own vets maybe state that you were shocked that an ill dog was moved to an OOH vets that had already misdiagnosed - what are they going to do in the future. Would you have been happier if your vets had sent the dog to Leahurst for the op since they couldn't care for him themselves post surgery? Depending on their response you can decide whether you change vets...

What I did many years ago when 99% of our local vets outsourced OOH to a practice I loathed was register one animal at a very, very expensive local animal hospital and have their vaccs done there (all other treatment for that dog and the other 5 pets at the time was done at my own reasonably priced vets that I liked) but it gave me access to their OOH service for emergencies...
Click to expand...

thank you :) really helpful


i have told my vet already - ANY further issues he goes to leahurst full stop

HOWEVER... in an emergancy, i have to use the middle vets as they are out of hours.....so rally never guarantee he goes to leahurst as its none of my regular vets!!

so yes a change of practise is most definately in order - which is a real shame as we have been with our vets for 20 years...



I will ask about for any reccomendations for new vets as there is a few in the area but none i really know about - and with both my dogs issues (one has arthritus and on cartrofen weekly under insurance) ad my self harming dog its an issue...!!! that and trust.... i trust all the nurses where we are atm.... as well as the vets, but for out of hours its a PITA>
 
Noodle,

In your original thread I *think* somebody said that is was possible to self refer to Leahurst? It might be worth contacting them and seeing if you can arrange to be on their books for OOH...I know that you can do that for the RVC as I looked into it when I was looking to avoid the regular OOH here.The only reason I decided not to do that was the distance (over 40 miles) from me! If you are happy with your current vets except the OOH issue it might be worth working with them to find an alternative OOH for you.

One thing to remember when dealing with a vet practice is that you have the final say about who sees your animals - when it comes to referrals I always listen to where they advise I go but when it comes to the crunch I tell them where I want to go...they might not like it but tough.
 
I would put it in writing to the emergency clinic and your normal clinic. Did they not offer to do and X-ray after they thought it could be an obstruction? They should have offered you all options with prognosis and costs attached an helped you make a decision. As for leaving your dog covered in p**s (I think that's what I read) what a disgrace! Nursing staff need sacking! xx sorry you had such a terrible experience.
 
It always amazes me that vets with this kind of arrangement for out of hours cover get any clients whatsoever.

In an out of hours emergency I want to be dealing with someone who I know and trust, not making car journeys to places I know nothing about and dealing with people who don't know me or my animals.
 
Keep calm, deep breaths then write your letter like cbmcts says, in short bullet points giving times, symptoms and vet actions and subsequent results. Mention the length of time travelling back and forth. I think you would be more than justified in saying you do not expect to be billed for all this distress and misdiagnosis (perhaps). Depending upon the reply you get, you can then decide whether or not to report the episode to the RCVS. It might be better to register and start attending a new vet before you do report this.
It's been an horrendous experience for you and your poor dog, thank goodness you have both survived it. Vets are vital to us, and we need to have 100% confidence in them...
 
Thanks guys

my current vet knows how i feel and i said over my dead body will you ever refer me there again... i will ask if i can use leahurst for out of hours - if i can then job done

they are 30 mins away but tbh worth it as they really are fantastic





all advice taken aboard - my puppy in question (now 10 months) has had extra hugs while i think of where to go from here :)

im at leahurst this week - would i be asking too much to ask THEIR professional opinion of it all?? i know vets do not speak ill of each other (Fair enough) but their opinion would be good???
 
put it in writing-re asking your referral practice-yes, that would be bad form and they wouldn't be able ot advise really without knowing the full history.
re; missing the stone if he was just quiet and vomiting, then that could be a stone but needs time to see if anything is passing-majority of dogs with vom and being quiet aren't blocked, but it's always possible.
 
thanks - but really an x-ray would have shown a foreign body??

the stone was bloody massive.....how or why the hell he even swallowed it god only knows!!.
 
with the emergancy vets - no...

it said on his sheet " poss blockage or bug"... both options were given to me and tbh the vet was more convinced of a bug.

but no diarrohea or sickness (until about 15 mins before he was examined he threw up)... was present


ive had dogs all my life - and my parents before me.... whenever they have an off day its generally witha lot of vomiting and wretching.... maxi was stretching constantly (like ouch it hurts), no diarrhoea, sickness (until like i said) and then he collapsed.
 
so no sickness-diarrhoea could have been on its way-blockage generally takes a long time to become serious-soundsl ike his complications were due to poor surgery more than poor daignosis-am i right in saying he was xrayed the next morning?
 
If every vomiting dog was xrayed there would be a lot of unhappy clients! diarrhoea can or can not affect vomiters-so giving it 12-24hours to see if he started passing faeces is not unreasonable-traipsing between vets with a seriously ill dog IS and i would not use your practice if they do not provide ooh where you either stay once you get there or is on site.
 
i should have added he was totally off his feed..... i suppose he is my dog and tbh i know him inside out - my gut instinct said blockage due to amount of **** he gets his mits on....

anyhow for him lessson leant (garden now looks tarp mad as its utterly covered)!... socks are immeditately taken off him etc

however if there is a suspect blockage - looking back i should have insisted on an x-ray and my pooch wouldnt have had 12 hours at home feeling pretty ****...but thats by the by now so lesson learnt really!

but yes the out of hours thing is unnacceptable....
 
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