am i right?

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Dreamer515

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i have a 19 year old retired racehorse. ive had him for 8 and a half years now and he has been a pleasure to own! he was my first horse and i couldnt have asked for a better friend.

he was very sour from racing when i first got him and it took a few months before he would even canter...still couldnt go near anything that looked like a brush fence 2 years later!! i was 15 when i got him and i didnt really have any expectations for him other then be a happy hacker and to let him have a good quality of life after racing. we done 2 pony camps together and for a horse that had never seen a coloured pole (so i had been told) he was brilliant at showjumping! apart from thinking we were insulting him with anything lower than 3 foot! he hates flatwork so i wasnt too bothered about dressage and after a few bumpy starts he flew round cross county course avoiding brush fences and owl holes lol.
he has truly been a horse of a lifetime for me.

when hacking out last year his back end seemed to give way. he has suffered from stiffness before so the last couple of years we have mainly stuck to gentle hacking with the odd canter across the hills. i had the vet out immediatly for him as he was really struggling to walk. originally he was acting as if he had tied up and i got some one to bring a horse box out to take him back to his stable.

my original thoughts were that he had done something to his pelvis as he didnt look straight and was sore to touch up high. vet seemed to think it was puss in his foot. so we pulticed his hoof and treated as such. after a week there was still no swelling, heat or puss coming out but vet still said that was what it was! after 3 months of my poor boy being box rested and treated for puss and numerous visits from vet i had had enough.

i boxed him up to another vet surgery further away and as he came off the box with his fleece still on the vet took one look and said "stiffle joint" it was a relief that she didnt think it was puss! so we nerve blocked him then scanned and xrayed and found he had damaged his ligaments in his stiffle joint. probably caused from falling when he was racing. but now it has just caught up with him and completly stretched. due to his age we decided that it wasnt fair to put him through surgery and i even thought about having him put down. the vet told me that it "is like he has a disease in his joint. it will never repair and could possibly get worse with time" however she also said he wasnt in any pain with it at this time. so i decided that as long as he wasnt in pain and was happy then i was happy. we took him home and he has been retired since.

in Feburary he had a check up and the vet did say that he could be ridden, gently walked around the roads if i wanted to. i decided against this as i didnt want to cause him any more damage and he had never been one to walk sensibly when fresh!

im starting to question myself whether i am doing whats right for him or am i being selfish? i have another horse that i can ride so im ok with him being retired, but somedays he really looks like he wants to go for a ride, he sees me carrying tack for the other horse and he gets excited and very loud! but he calms down soon enough. i still spend time with him pottering about and reading to him but i kinda feel like hes missing out. i dont want to keep him going if he is not happy, he deserves so much more than to be suffering and unhappy. although he seems happy out in the field with the other horses he is still very lame behind and has muscle wastedge on his off side due to the injury. i have said all along that the moment he looks to be struggling to keep up with the other in the field or if he looks miserable then it will be his time. am i seeing him through rose tinted glasses?

if you have read all of this then thanks for putting up with my ramblings. i just love him so much, he has been my rock when everything else fell around me and i dont know what i would do without him. but obviously his wellbeing comes first.
 
You obviously love your horse and want what's best for him.

I really wouldn't ride him, it doesn't seem fair to risk further damage, and if his stifle is causing the problem he is having to compensate through other areas of his body. None of us can decide for you, as we can't see him, the onoly advice I can give is to remember the old saying 'better a week too soon than a day too late' If he is happy and coping, then fine, just watch him through the winter, particularly if you live in heavy soil and he has to cope with deep mud.

Great that you gave him a wonderful home and lots of fun. xx
 
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What a lucky horse to have found you to look after him!

Why don't you get the vets out to re-assess him? From what you have said he sounds happy enough but they would be able to tell you if his condition has worsened. It sounds like you have the time to give him some attention so you could consider bute to make him more comfortable - if he's happy in himself and you're happy too, you could keep him going for a little while yet.

If the vets say he has deteriorated then only you can decide when enough is enough.

Good luck :)
 
Have you tried danilon? Works wonders for my arthritic horse, lets him live a pain free life still doing what he loves alongside regular gentle exercise (with the odd bit of tanking off!)
 
What about taking him for little walks in hand? Great exercise for you both and it really perked my old boy up when he was retired. His brain was always about 5 years behind his body so his walks were enough to keep his mind active. He especially loved it when the cow parsley was out as there was none in his field.

ETA if he's physically up to it of course.
 
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he goes for daily walks in hand in the river through the summer as he loves the water but walking in hand round the roads is not really an option as even with a bridle/chiffney he can be quite cheeky. ive tried riding and leading but he gets too excited being out and acts like a nutter! putting himself, me and my other horse at risk.

he is not on any suppliments as he has harsh reactions to certain substances and vet said its best to stay clear of them. as for Bute, i know it helps but i dont want to mask the pain. if he can feel the pain then he knows his limits and wont be stupid plus i dont like the idea of him living the rest of his life on Bute. im not fussed about riding him, he doesnt owe me anything and he deserves a happy stress free retirement. he has just had a health check 2 weeks ago as i wanted to check he is ok going into winter and all is ok other than that stiffle joint. his field does get quite boggy but he comes in at night and is only out in day due to him being an idiot and trying to jump the gate to bring himself in. he loves his stable and some mornings i have to drag him out to field. i know it would be better to keep him out 24/7 but he wouldnt allow it (last time he landed on the gate and and crushed it along with a £750 vet bill for holes in 2 legs!!)

i will check with my vet about Danillon as i dont want to make him ill. he even has a reaction to certain wormer so best to be safe than sorry.

thanks for the suggestions and advice :)
 
Of course you want to mask the pain... it is exactly the same as in humans you have pain you take pain killers especially when it's a chronic condition. If I was to withold pain relief from a patient I'd be in court. Side effects from danillon are rare and the pain free existence they can give a horse easily outweigh the risks.
 
hol089 said:
Of course you want to mask the pain... it is exactly the same as in humans you have pain you take pain killers especially when it's a chronic condition. If I was to withold pain relief from a patient I'd be in court. Side effects from danillon are rare and the pain free existence they can give a horse easily outweigh the risks.
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i know they help. a few years ago he had an accident on the road and broke the skin on his knees, he had to have 8 weeks box rest and vets seen to him. they gave him antibiotics but when i asked about bute i was told that it is was best not to as he would think he was all ok and do too much and make the injury worse. but by him being able to feel that he wasnt 100% he would take it easy and know his limits and not do any silly things he normally does. im just worried if he doesnt feel it then hes going to go careering around the field like an idiot and do more damage. i think its one of those where i will have to check with the vet agian as she seemed to think he was ok without it if he wasnt being ridden but i obviously dont want him to be in pain.

also i dont like the idea of riding him on bute as ive seen this done before with racehorses and as soon as they are taken off it they fall apart.

surely if they have injuries but are on bute so they cant feel it, it only makes the injury worse therefore shortining their life span? im only guessing on this last part but i dont like the idea of him living on bute and the injury getting worse but not being able to tell as he doesnt feel the pain. does that make sence? like i said i know it works but surley its better to only use it for short term injuries that they will recover from?

im going to look into Danillon.
 
i think this explains what i was trying to say about staying away from painkillers. i found it on a vet website.

"Treatments will only mask the symptoms not remove the cause and by continually masking the symptoms you are at risk of worsening the injury itself.

To illustrate, if you badly sprained your ankle it would probably hurt like mad. You would not want to put any weight on it whatsoever as doing so would cause a sharp, sudden pain that would make you wince or cry out.

Imagine if you were then given a very strong painkiller so that you felt no pain in your ankle. After a couple of hours of pain-free existence, you would probably start to use your ankle almost normally, allowing it to bear your weight as if it were not injured at all.

That's fine until the pain relief drug wears off and suddenly you collapse in agony.

Trying to get your horse to understand this principle is virtually impossible since they will not comprehend the causes of pain - they just know something hurts."
 
hol089 said:
Of course you want to mask the pain... it is exactly the same as in humans you have pain you take pain killers especially when it's a chronic condition. If I was to withold pain relief from a patient I'd be in court. Side effects from danillon are rare and the pain free existence they can give a horse easily outweigh the risks.
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This and especially for arthritic conditions. Gentle exercise can also good as it helps stop muscle wastage and keeps them stronger for longer.
 
This is irrelevant if the injury is not going to ever resolve. Basically you are saying you want to keep him at a constant level of pain so he doesn't injure himself more. I would also suggest that www.total-horse-expert.com is not the appropriate place to gain advice regarding your horses health and chronic pain issues, this is not a vet website.
 
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hol089 said:
This is irrelevant if the injury is not going to ever resolve. Basically you are saying you want to keep him at a constant level of pain so he doesn't injure himself more. I would also suggest that www.total-horse-expert.com is not the appropriate place to gain advice regarding your horses health and chronic pain issues, this is not a vet website.
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Not sure that's entirely fair. At the moment he appears sound in the field, as I understand it the discussion is about whether it would be fair to use bute or danilon to enable him to be exercised.

Hope I've got that right OP. :)
 
I also read it as the horse is not in pain at the moment, so OP is reluctant to use bute/danilon as it will mask if/when he IS in pain in the future.
 
Dreamer515 said:
surely if they have injuries but are on bute so they cant feel it, it only makes the injury worse therefore shortining their life span?
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I have a 29 year old ex puissance horse who has finally, in the last three months, decided that he is too old and grumpy to compete and hunt anymore, and now just pops out for a few hacks a week, and pops the odd fence to keep him happy. He has been on bute for the past year for his arthritis, and I don't think I could live with myself if I withheld it from him.

He is old, stiff, and arthritic, he has been an incredible horse for me, and worked and competed at a high level for most of his life. He owes me nothing, I owe him a pain free, happy retirement.

I'm not buting him up and taking him hunting all day. I'm buting him up so he's comfortable pottering around the field and going for gentle hacks. He's so old that the bute won't have time to damage his insides.

I wouldn't keep a young horse on bute, and I wouldn't bute a horse so that I could ride it, but I believe it is totally wrong to keep a horse in pain so that it "doesn't do any further damage". The damage is done, manage it properly to give your boy a happy, pain free retirement.
 
The OP says he is very lame behind in the field therefore he is in pain. As someone who lives with severe chronic pain I would definitely be giving him some pain relief. Surely quality of life is better than quantity if the longer life is very painful. I take a drug which is stronger than morphine and has some nasty side effects but I'd rather that than be in agony 24/7. Personally I would give bute or Danilon and ensure he is comfortable and if does injure himself further then deal with that at the time. Leaving a horse in pain so he lives longer doesn't make any sense to me. If someone told me I'd live longer without my pain killers I'd still take them as I'd rather be as active and comfortable as possible than live for longer in pain. If he was mine I would consider his quality of life and current pain/lameness rather than focussing on how long he will live.
 
If you don't want to medicate your horse OP, that is your choice. But a horse exhibiting the type of symptoms yours does would probably benefit hugely from a daily dose of Danillon.
 
I have an arthritic 16 year old. He isn't on bute daily, but I do give it to him as and when he needs it. From what I understand, bute isn't just a painkiller, it is also an anti inflammatory, so helps his joints as well.
 
OP if your horse is lame behind, then it is probable he is suffering some level of discomfort/pain. My last racehorse was the same. He was on 2 bute daily at the end, but when the bute stopped making a difference he was PTS. Isn't it better that your horse has the rest of his life without pain, than a longer life with pain?
 
Apologies...I missed the bit where OP says he is very lame.

In that case, I'm afraid I wouldn't consider riding him and I would definately be giving him some pain relief.

I guess the thing for me would be....you don't now much longer he'll be around and it would be much nicer to think that he ended his days happy and comfortable. :) To be honest, if he were mine and with the condition likely being progressive, I'd be thinking along the lines of giving him pain relief, letting him kick up his heels in the field for a few months and then think about letting him go over rainbow bridge.

Good luck with whatever you decide, it's never easy and it really sucks being a horse owner sometimes.
 
ive spoken to the vet today. she said he is ok without. he will be staying in retierment and not being ridden. also she has told me to stay well away from Danillon as there is a risk (although small) that it can cause stomach ulcers and he has suffered with this in the past, also i mentioned bute again and she again didnt recommend it for him due to past history when he has had it.

although he is very lame behind the vet saids that it was more an ache then "real" pain and giving him painkillers isnt worth the risk due to his allergies/issues. i did bring up pts if he was in pain and couldnt have pain killers and she said at the moment he is happy and comftable so think im gonna keep going as we are and just keep a close eye on him over the winter.

thanks for suggestions and advice.
 
I'm afraid if my horse were chronically uncomfortable with an arthritic condition and I was advised not to administer pain relief, I would be putting to sleep.
I'd also be finding myself a different vet.
 
I'd like to know what the difference between an ache and real pain is. Also the horse is "very lame behind" which implies high levels of discomfort. The vet's advice seems odd. Surely the relief of significant pain is worth the very small risk of ulcers? Being in constant pain is soul destroying for humans, I imagine its the same for horses.
 
How can your vet possibly say that a very lame horse only has an ache rather than real pain? I have so much pain I cannot sleep and every movement is agony, I've seen many doctors and not one can determine how much pain I'm in even knowing the specific damage to my nerves. I can tell them the pain level but your horse is only able to show you by his lameness.
I would be looking for a new vet. Why is it ok to leave a very lame horse hobbling around a field just because he is retired? My retired horse is completely sound but if she is even slightly lame she will get the pain relief she needs and then if that no longer helps she will be PTS and not left in agony 'very lame behind'. I doubt you have ever been in pain if you are happy for this situation to continue.
 
A little surprised that your vet said No to Danilon!! My 27 year old has been on this (on the advice of Rossdales in Newmarket) for several years now as she has arthritis in her neck which was causing her a lot of discomfort. She is just fine and looks well and in no pain. I'd rather have her pain free and living a happy and comfortable life.
 
OP I'd suggest you find a new vet.. Your vet cannot possibly know whether your horse feels an ache or true pain and if he's very lame behind id hazard a guess at him being in pain not just an ache.

Going into the winter very lame and possibly in pain will be a poor existence for him :(
 
TheSylv007 said:
I'd like to know what the difference between an ache and real pain is. Also the horse is "very lame behind" which implies high levels of discomfort. The vet's advice seems odd. Surely the relief of significant pain is worth the very small risk of ulcers? Being in constant pain is soul destroying for humans, I imagine its the same for horses.
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I completely agree. The risk of ulcers if using Danillon would also be negligible especially given the horsrs age.

I too would be changing vet.

Poor horse.
 
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