Am quite cross...seller appears to be accusing me/my vet

HeresHoping

HeresHoping

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The horse I was having vetted last week had the vetting suspended whilst it had some back shoes with clips put on. Horse's hind were inordinately long and it had a significant toe crack. It hopped two-three steps off the flexion on that leg, lunged fine on school and hard ground, but went lame when ridden.

At MY expense I had the horse shod last night (owners/sellers having none of it), and will allow time to bed in a bit before completing the vet check next week. Whilst the farrier was doing her work, the seller was going on about how it was despicable the horse was lunged on rough ground and no wonder she was lame. By the fourth time this was repeated, with examples of how a £20k horse they had was never lunged on rough ground by XXX vets, the penny dropped with me.

I restated the horse had failed the flexion before any lunging but only with a couple of hops. Then I took pains to point out the horse was NOT lunged on rough ground but in the paddock where the ground was harder. Yes, there were patches of rough in there but the horse wasn't deliberately lunged over them.

I'm feeling very cross and uncomfortable, now. If the horse doesn't pass the vet, I can't help feeling there's going to be considerable comeback and accusations flying everywhere. My farrier boldly described the extent of the toe crack, and that it had penetrated the sole, so it would be very sore. But those words seemed to be falling on deaf ears.

Gah. Any words of wisdom for mitigation? Thank you.
 
I paid for the farrier because the owners didn't want to know; the person selling the horse on the owner's behalf wasn't committed as the owners wouldn't pay; and I want the wretched thing vetted. So, for the sake of £30 I decided to get on with it.

If I walk away now, the horse won't have a failed certificate and I won't get my deposit back. At least that would pay for the vet if I finished the vetting and it failed. It's a nice horse, with good breeding, it could be something quite special. Vet and I discussed the horse at the vetting and suspended the vetting as the horse was not in a fit state for a certain conclusion but felt it was worth persevering with.

Horse is 500 yards from my yard; and the middleman is there often. It's going to be blooming uncomfortable at best.
 
I cant imagine why on earth you are bothering with this horse- it was lame on vetting- seller either gets to the bottom of why and pays to get it sound then offers you the chance to re-vet or you walk away.
Personally, I'd have walked away as shoeing is not going to solve the crack issue
 
Tbh it sounds like they are just feeling slightly offended that the vets found the slight lameness and are being slightly 'stroppy' about it. I think it a very good of you to have payed for the horses shoeing I as a horse dealer/producer would have been more than happy to pay for the horses shoeing myself due to wanting the best for the horse and to increase the chance of the horse passing the vet second time round. We do not let vets lunge out horses on concrete due to risk of injury but allow them to be lunged on school and hard ground this is part of the vetting and the sellers shouldn't have accreted the offer if they wernt prepared for the 5 stage vetting to take place. For now I would maybe keep communication down to a minimum until the second vetting has taken place. If all looks good then great, if not after speaking to the vet decided if you would be willing to make a lower offer, if so make it and walk away. Or if you feel you don't want the horse just simply say after the vets findings I have decided not to proceed with the purchase, this is what vettings are for:) better now than in 4 weeks down the line, good luck second time round!
 
I'm another thats amazed you are sticking with it.

It sounds like you desperately want this horse, if it fails the vetting what are the chances you will pull out? If you do pull out all you can do is ignore them if you dont I would certainly be getting the price down
 
It sounds like they are messing you around.

Personally I would have the vetting still, but I would make sure that the owners know that if it fails again then you will NOT be buying their horse, and you DO expect your deposit back.

Then, if it fails, ask the vet to hang around for five minutes whilst you explain to the owners that you wont be buying it because of this/that. If they have any objections or excuses at least your vet is there to help you out.

It may be awkward or messy, but would you rather that or an unsound horse?
 
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Hereshoping said:
The horse I was having vetted last week had the vetting suspended whilst it had some back shoes with clips put on. Horse's hind were inordinately long and it had a significant toe crack. It hopped two-three steps off the flexion on that leg, lunged fine on school and hard ground, but went lame when ridden.

At MY expense I had the horse shod last night (owners/sellers having none of it), and will allow time to bed in a bit before completing the vet check next week. Whilst the farrier was doing her work, the seller was going on about how it was despicable the horse was lunged on rough ground and no wonder she was lame. By the fourth time this was repeated, with examples of how a £20k horse they had was never lunged on rough ground by XXX vets, the penny dropped with me.

I restated the horse had failed the flexion before any lunging but only with a couple of hops. Then I took pains to point out the horse was NOT lunged on rough ground but in the paddock where the ground was harder. Yes, there were patches of rough in there but the horse wasn't deliberately lunged over them.

I'm feeling very cross and uncomfortable, now. If the horse doesn't pass the vet, I can't help feeling there's going to be considerable comeback and accusations flying everywhere. My farrier boldly described the extent of the toe crack, and that it had penetrated the sole, so it would be very sore. But those words seemed to be falling on deaf ears.

Gah. Any words of wisdom for mitigation? Thank you.
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For God Sake walk away. We have enough trouble with our horses as time goes on without buying trouble. Good luck in your hunt I am sure you will find something more suitable.
 
Actually I think the vet is being unfair to both of you. If crack is that bad shoes won't make it sound. They should have failed it outright
 
Another amazed that you haven't walked - it must be a very lovely horse. If the feet were long and cracked I would worry that other basic care has been lacking like jabs, teeth and worming.
 
My question, to be fair, was how to mitigate for a stroppy 'dealer'.:)

However, I have gone through with this because, after lengthy discussion with my vet, it was the decision I arrived at. My vet endorsed it - off air, so to speak, as she has nursed me through 3 years of hell. I trust her implicitly.

This is the 4th horse I have had vetted - either I pick some corkingly wonky donkeys, or I am hugely unlucky. This is the first time my own vet has done the vetting for me. After three failures, this was the chance I was willing to take. There was no heat in the leg; there was no pulse. There was a significant toe crack. I agree, the seller should have paid for the farrier. But if I didn't it wouldn't have happened and I may just have been turning down a cracking little horse that is a blank canvas for me to make into my own. I also am well aware that shoeing will not necessarily resolve the issue. It's a quick fix. I did discuss the crack at length with my farrier, and in the grand scheme of things she had seen worse.
 
Brimmers said:
It sounds like they are messing you around.

Personally I would have the vetting still, but I would make sure that the owners know that if it fails again then you will NOT be buying their horse, and you DO expect your deposit back.

Then, if it fails, ask the vet to hang around for five minutes whilst you explain to the owners that you wont be buying it because of this/that. If they have any objections or excuses at least your vet is there to help you out.

It may be awkward or messy, but would you rather that or an unsound horse?
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Thank you - that's a sensible suggestion. I have a signed and witnessed (independently) statement stating that the sale of the horse is subject to the horse passing the vet, and that my deposit is fully refundable in the circumstances.
 
R.I.D said:
Why on earth have you paid a deposit for a horse that has yet to pass a vetting??
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That's quite normal - deposit to be refunded if the horse fails the vetting. But I wouldn't have had the horse shod - the seller's refusal to carry out treatment required for the horse to pass the vetting should also be a good enough reason for them to give you a refund. I understand why your vet didn't fail the horse outright but it sounds like it would have been better if they had have done. Just make sure the vet fails the horse outright if there is anything wrong with the flexion tests on the second vetting so that you do not get a recurrence of the lunging on uneven ground issue.

I'm really sorry for the difficult situation :(
 
Hereshoping said:
My question, to be fair, was how to mitigate for a stroppy 'dealer'.:)

However, I have gone through with this because, after lengthy discussion with my vet, it was the decision I arrived at. My vet endorsed it - off air, so to speak, as she has nursed me through 3 years of hell. I trust her implicitly.

This is the 4th horse I have had vetted - either I pick some corkingly wonky donkeys, or I am hugely unlucky. This is the first time my own vet has done the vetting for me. After three failures, this was the chance I was willing to take. There was no heat in the leg; there was no pulse. There was a significant toe crack. I agree, the seller should have paid for the farrier. But if I didn't it wouldn't have happened and I may just have been turning down a cracking little horse that is a blank canvas for me to make into my own. I also am well aware that shoeing will not necessarily resolve the issue. It's a quick fix. I did discuss the crack at length with my farrier, and in the grand scheme of things she had seen worse.
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Don't worry, I had three horses fail the vet before I found my perfect girl (although she has turned into a wee witch now she's in season!) and got a few stroppy messages/texts from sellers, one telling me in no uncertain terms that she didn't rate me or my vet...when he found the horse in question has a significant heart murmur...so don't lose heart, you'll find the right one...
 
amymay said:
Perfectly normal.
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Thank god it's not perfectly normal in Ireland so, totally ridiculous. You pay for the vetting, that's about it. How on earth do you guarantee getting your deposit back?
Would you hand over a deposit on a car, without having test-driven it or had a mechanic check it over??
 
R.I.D said:
Why on earth have you paid a deposit for a horse that has yet to pass a vetting??
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A perfectly normal thing to do.

I paid a deposit for mine whilst waiting for him to be vetted.

1. For peace of mind that if all was well he was 100% mine and nobody else would try and slide on in.

2. To show the seller I was deadly serious about the horse.

If he failed then I got my deposit back, simple.
 
R.I.D said:
Thank god it's not perfectly normal in Ireland so, totally ridiculous. You pay for the vetting, that's about it. How on earth do you guarantee getting your deposit back?
Would you hand over a deposit on a car, without having test-driven it or had a mechanic check it over??
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It takes time to get your own vet booked in. Paying a small returnable deposit is in return for the buyer taking the horse off the market. As long as the receipt for the deposit is subject to successful vetting then it's a legal contract like any other.

Not totally ridiculous. Just different practice.

How do you ensure in Ireland that the horse you are buying doesn't get sold to someone else in the period between you seeing it and your independed vet being free to vet it?
.
 
Alarm bells! If the horse is being sold on behalf of someone else then the dealer selling it can not be held reponsible for any come backs and neither can the owner. This is a clever way of selling a horse to avoid any action being taken against dealer or owner.

My advice is .... stay well clear!
 
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lachlanandmarcus said:
It takes time to get your own vet booked in. Paying a small returnable deposit is in return for the buyer taking the horse off the market. As long as the receipt for the deposit is subject to successful vetting then it's a legal contract like any other.

Not totally ridiculous. Just different practice.

How do you ensure in Ireland that the horse you are buying doesn't get sold to someone else in the period between you seeing it and your independed vet being free to vet it?
.
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you don't..but its a better risk to take to lose the horse before you vet it, rather than hand over a deposit and in meantime owner still sells horse to someone else, pocketing your deposit and cash from the sale.
 
OWLIE185 said:
Alarm bells! If horse is being sold on behalf of someone else then the dealer selling it can not be responsible for any come backs and neither can the owner. This is a clever way of selling a horse to avoid any action being taken against dealer or owner.

My advice is .... stay well clear!
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This is also my sentiment! You are also more than likely paying an inflated price for the animal due to the dealer being implicated & getting his share of the money, as opposed to dealing directly with the owner.
Either way, too many alarms bells ringing, I would be staying clear.
 
Oh dear. :(

Thank you for the advice to walk away, but that has far more legal implications than not. I like the horse. Very much. I thought hard about the horse. The horse is in 'sales livery' with someone with whom I have an acquaintance through others - I know them to talk to and that's as far as it goes. The horse was pointed out to me as a good prospect.

The horse is a blank canvas - it has been backed and turned away. I enquired why it was backed late, and who bred it, and why it was sent to the sales livery, and why it is for sale for not very much money. It is now ready to bring on. I 'test drove' the horse ;) and I felt there was a great deal of promise there. Very willing little horse. The horse had several interested parties and I went back the next day, after discussing with others, including my instructor, and gave the sales livery/dealer my deposit. In so doing I asked the dealer to sign a witnessed pre-purchase agreement that stated I was paying 10% deposit, fully refundable should my vet fail the horse. I signed this too. The vet didn't fail the horse outright. So, to walk away now could be held against me, as I would be in breach of contract.
 
R.I.D said:
Why on earth have you paid a deposit for a horse that has yet to pass a vetting??
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This is the norm. Its called a deposit subject to vetting. Nothing wrong with doing that as long as you have reciepts. Have done it myself.

OP sounds like the horse was lame in the first instance. That in itself is enough to qualify as a 'fail'. You are not obligated to try and cure it or have it shod in order to pass the vetting!....walk away now. I wouldnt get involved with these people or any horse that they are selling. There are plently more fish in the sea......
 
R.I.D said:
you don't..but its a better risk to take to lose the horse before you vet it, rather than hand over a deposit and in meantime owner still sells horse to someone else, pocketing your deposit and cash from the sale.
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...........this is why you get a reciept stating that x amount of cash was handed over. Signed by both parties and stating 'subject to vetting'. Its also wise to take a witness.

It is also beneficial to the seller as they know you are definitly wanting the horse. Saves the seller turning others away who may come knocking at door with cash in hand only to be dissapointed when you change your mind.
 
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R.I.D said:
Thank god it's not perfectly normal in Ireland so, totally ridiculous. You pay for the vetting, that's about it. How on earth do you guarantee getting your deposit back?
Would you hand over a deposit on a car, without having test-driven it or had a mechanic check it over??
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I've experience of both aspects of this. I went to a dealers yard and found a horse the contract allowed for a refunable deposit upon failed vetting. The dealer actually didn't excercise her right to take the deposit. Vetting stopped as the vet found a sarcoid which was on my no list.

I went to view another horse another dealer but she poses as a private seller but that is another story. I try the horse several times agree a purchase price and book a vetting she wouldn't take a deposit. I then find out thru the grapevine that someone else is going for a final viewing and has a vetting booked. I challenged the seller who admitted to a mix up between her and her mum. Truth was that she was a lying trollop and was trying to play people off to raise the price. For some strange reason I didn't back out and bought the horse who was not at all as described ... but again that is another story:rolleyes:
 
Rightly or wrongly, I'm gonna stick to the question you asked ;)

I'm not sure what legal comeback they would have against you as a result of a vetting; they allowed you to have a vetting, you're using a qualified vet, don't think they have a leg to stand on (pardon the pun).

Possibly a vet is liable for something they do at a vetting but can't see how prospective buyer would be.

Also sounds like a load of codswollop anyway as lunging on a harder surface is a common/standard thing to do at a vetting. If they didn't want flexion tests etc., then they should have excluded those when giving you permission to vet. Stuff em.

Going slightly beyond the topic, perfectly normal to do what you did re deposit. And I'd also be concerned about this horse/seller tbh and would be thinking hard about whether I wanted to go ahead. But I know how it is when you find one you really like. I have had a 50/50 failure rating with 5 stage vettings, so I feel your pain!
 
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