...'and staaand' (and bitless question)

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BBP

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I am just bringing my 4 year old back into work after 6 months turned away.

At the moment i am delaying getting back on him as I feel he doesn't understand downwards transitions through the rein when long reining at all. He is fabulous to the voice, very responsive when led and steers with the lightest touch but he doesn't seem to be picking up the association between the voice and rein command, he just opens his mouth and curls into the contact and carries on walking.

I am using the lightest contact I can and don't want to risk getting heavy in the hand, and soften it the instant I get a positive reaction. Do i need to just keep on doing the same thing and give him as much time as it takes or am I doing something wrong?

Also, what are peoples opinions on bitless bridles on young horses? Can you use one straight away and even long rein off it, or should a young horse accept a bit etc and then be introduced to one at a later date? I have always liked the idea of bitless bridles (as I am a slightly soft and fluffy type apparently!) but don't know the realities of using them when backing and bringing on a young horse.

Thanks
 
No idea re. the bitless/youngsters, but I'm sure there are cultures where it's straight into bitless.

I'd be tempted to use a Mexican grakle just to dissuade the mouth opening. Not done up tight, just enough to say No.
 
yes you can absolutely use them straight away, you just teach them in the same way you would with a bit (i.e. pressure release etc). I think they're great but it depends on the horse of course, and the owner (and the bridle too to some extent lol!). I would discuss it wiht a dentist as e.g. dr cooks put pressure across the jaw so if the horse had bad teeth might be worse for it than a bit (my elderly mare has hardly any opposing teeth adn it's supposed to be better to have a kind bit in her than ride bitless, for example). On the other hand they can be used for dental problems of cours,e but it depends on the horse.

My horse was originally broken in quite traumatically and as a result has never understood really about pressure and release, responding in the same way as your youngster. I have used a clicker to help wiht this - could you try that? First it would be the same as voice training but then you can click (and treat if nec) for any release of pressure etc. Ben HArt has a really really good book on how to go about all of it if you're interested.

Sounds like you're doing a good job to be so careful adn thoughtful about the whole thing though :-)
 
Are you asking for a half halt, thus prepairing him for a command and slowing down him down a little before asking for halt?

Is he mouthing the bit still?
 
sorry - hope you don't mind me saying, but i think it's best to avoid gadgets at this stage even if they are loose - it's obvious the horse simply doesn't understand the correct response at this stage so best to teach him how to respond correctly rather than force him to alter his behaviour wiht a gadget... just my opinion.
 
I do have a clicker, and use it for other things, so perhaps that is something to try along with releasing the pressure, i will look up the book.

I am perhaps a little too thoughtful and careful according to a few people and as such am reluctant to do anything like use a nose band to discourage mouth opening as I believe it is caused by something I am doing that could be done better. He is teething so it may be that the extra pressure on his gums is uncomfortable. I have maybe been guilty of being a little 'friendly' with him rather than an obvious leader so am trying to be clearer with him to give him more confidence.
 
I broke and started my big youngster in a Dr Cook's. I had no problems other than other people's misconceptions!

Starting out bitless means the horse has the ability to be more sensitive to weight aids and seat. One problem I had was that he learnt to lean on me and trundle along on his forehand - but that was my own fault in being slow to school. And him being a draft type - he was prone to leaning.

An instructor insisted we use a bit and (although he had been introduced to a bit as part of his backing) he became spooky, tense and strong.

We now use an S hackamore for fast work and a Dr Cooks for home.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Are you asking for a half halt, thus prepairing him for a command and slowing down him down a little before asking for halt?

Is he mouthing the bit still?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am, and he will slow, but then pushes on into it. He varies between being quite quiet in the mouth and quite mouthy - this increases when he is starting to get tired or a bit stressed.
 
well i think that's great - all this boss stuff gets a bit OTT and i think youngsters need you to be their friend too - it probably means you're much more sensitive to what he needs than you mgiht be, so don't worry about it. There's nothing wrong with taking as long as he needs! it is nice to hear :-)
 
That's my opinion too, if I plan to keep him for the next 30 years there is no rush to get anything done to a deadline. I could see that i was being a little unclear though, so I have simplified my commands, lowered my voice tone so I stopped talking to him like he was a baby and stopped chattering at him. I think that has probably helped to focus my mind a little, which should help him.
 
It didn't sound like he is mouthing going by the description to date, though may well be ('opens mouth and curls in'). Until he learns to come up from behind, how is he going to learn that opening mouth and curling in isn't the required response?

I'm all for bitless if the horse is happier in one
smile.gif
. We tried with Dizz, but let's just say she didn't get on with it (think sitting down on ar$e at speed lol).
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you asking for a half halt, thus prepairing him for a command and slowing down him down a little before asking for halt?

Is he mouthing the bit still?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am, and he will slow, but then pushes on into it. He varies between being quite quiet in the mouth and quite mouthy - this increases when he is starting to get tired or a bit stressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your just bringing him back into work then I wouldnt worry too much about it so long as he's confortable in the mouth, like you said if he's getting stressy because he's getting tired/bord and maybe just wants to get on with the job rather than stopping and starting etc but I think if you give him time and don't over practice, then eventually it will all come together.
 
Western trainers start horses bitless...either in a bosal, or like my friend, usually in just a head collar.
Once they have understood 'go' and 'whoa' from the voice and the positioning of the rider's body, and to turn from laying the rope against their neck on the outside of a turn (the precursor of neck reining) a snaffle bit may be introduced.
They would, however tend to do this sort of training in a smallish enclosed area such as a round pen.
 
This is a whole new learning curve for me, I have never had a horse to train right from scratch who doesn't even understand what stop means, so I am definitely listening to all opinions/advice. I just don't want to mess anything up as he's a lovely lovely horse! Last year he seemed to go really well, but i now wonder if he had been responding solely to the voice and I just hadn't really noticed how much I had been using it as an aid! He would even halt on the exhale of the '...and' bit of 'and stand'. I love that he's so sensitive but I think I have missed something in his training and don't want to go further until I get it right.

The obvious answer is for me to get my instructor in, which I will do in the next week.
 


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"If your just bringing him back into work then I wouldnt worry too much about it so long as he's confortable in the mouth, like you said if he's getting stressy because he's getting tired/bord and maybe just wants to get on with the job rather than stopping and starting etc but I think if you give him time and don't over practice, then eventually it will all come together. "

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be a good point, he is quite a hyper, sharp little horse, especially in this weather, so perhaps he is just keen to keep moving forwards and I have been stopping and starting too often in my worry to get it right. Maybe I should allow him to focus his energy on going forwards and halt less regularly and not worry so much. i also thought I could start leading him off the bit rather than headcollar as I usually do, so he gets more used to gentle bit pressure when asked to stop.
 
Wow you have lots of advice,
I agree that to use gadgets at such an early stage is not the way to go, perhaps a few pointers might help.

1. When you are preparing to do a downward transition you inform the horse you are about to change what he is doing, lift your sturnum/chest, sit tall and drop the weight through to your heels, you alter your weight and sit deep.

2. use what ever voice command you are used to and keep it in a low tone and dont change the tone, even if it takes 30 strides. ( the horse will learn)

3. What ever you have on, be it a bittless or headcollar or bit, have a gentle pressure on.

4. When you get the halt or what ever you wanted, release the gentle pressure on head/mouth praise the horse, dont have a party but a '' good boy/girl'' and as gentle couple of pats will be enough.

5. Practice, practice, practice, practice. But ensure when it is done right or nearly right, DO NOT do it again, change what you are doing or your horse might get a tad peeved and a battle will commence.



6.Do it on foot, so when walking to a feild use the same voice command and gentle pressure and halt 5 times or more sand still for 3-4 seconds and reward each time he stops.

It takes time but after breaking in over 20 horses it has worked so far with the minimum of battles and at the end of the day, a Happy horse is a happy owner. Also if you continue this way all you will have to do is point 1. and you will get the desired transtiton without any pressure on the mouth/nose.

good luck.
 
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