And...we have a positive PSSM type 2 test. We are n/px

[catembi]

So I am guessing that I don't need to be so fixated on what neck strap I need as I know from experience that no neck strap will keep you on an exploding PSSM/MIM horse...

FFS. Beyond devastated. That makes 7. I don't know what to do now. Retire her? Retire myself & just give up & do Parelli...?

I hate everything right now.

And the person who doesn't believe in the test has been on UI for ages, so at least I don't have to hear from them.

So we will follow the familiar route of battling onwards until we get symptomatic, and then I will...what...? Save up for another 2-3 years for yet another horse or just give up now altogether.

This is px: https://pssmandmfm.wixsite.com/pssmawareness/post/the-px-variant-of-pssm2-explained

 

[Patterdale]

I’m so sorry.

Is she symptomatic? Have any large scale tests been done to see how present this is in the general equine population?

 

[Glitter's fun]

Very sorry, how disappointing for you.
I have no personal experience with this so no point commenting further but I hope you get some good advice to clarify your thinking.

 

[scats]

Im so sorry. I have a px mare. Feel free to message, even if it’s just for a vent.
I get it, I really do.

 

[Rowreach]

I’m so sorry, for you and for your horse

 

[Peglo]

So sorry to hear this. So very unfair!

 

[ponynutz]

So sorry

 

[quizzie]

To try to put a positive spin on it.... ( and I'm sure you know all this!)

The tests aren't proven.....it isn't certain that she will develop a full blown muscle myopathy.

Lots of 4yo have explosive moments (hers had a definite trigger) without being PSSM.

Even if she has a form of PSSM, a fair number can be managed with diet and are able to perform at a moderate competitive level.

I've been there with one who I have no doubt did have a muscle myopathy, but proved negative to every test currently available other than showing a low Vit E on bloods which needed Nano E to correct. However with careful diet adjustments, I was able to compete him to AM/PSG dressage. I'm sure one day his variant will have a name and a test, but my point is management can work for some of them. Don't give up!

 

[shortstuff99]

I am very sorry to hear your news and struggles with your new horse.

As a geneticist I do feel that the genes for MFM are not as clear cut as the company will have people believe. The fact that you have tested 7 horses and all are positive for a gene hints that these are ubiquitous within horse populations but the amount of horses still being ridden says it can be managed and/or there are other factors involved.

I'm not sure I would write the horse off yet, and perhaps work a combination of feeding and ground work/ ridden work training and see how it goes.

 

[Zoeypxo]

What are the symptoms for this?

 

[catembi]

The symptoms are as per the link that I posted in my initial post. You can skip through the science stuff if you don't want to read it, & all the symptoms are listed.

 

[HeresHoping]

Sorry, @catembi

As a lapsed scientist (Immunologist) I cannot believe that all 7 of yours have tested positive and really have been PSSM Type 2. There's no validated genetic test for PSSM type 2. All they are looking at are the amount of sugars in the muscle. And there are hundreds of environmental factors that could affect this, from time of day the biopsy is taken, to the amount of work that has occurred. I really don't think this test can possibly be conclusive. You'd have to do rigorously controlled tests over a specified time frame to be conclusive. A silly moment where her adrenalin levels shoot up might cause levels to glitch, as might a night in the stables.

Statement from the BEVA: “...given the high prevalence of the genetic variants in the horse population that are tested for, many horses will test positive just by chance – whether or not they have any disease at all.”

Seriously - she had a 4 yo moment. She didn't understand what she was supposed to do. It sent your adrenalin sky high and she felt the vibes and the tension and it started a vicious circle.

I know as a neurospicy you desperately seek a reason and a validation for things, but sometimes we just over-think things and then our brains get stuck in a loop.

Manage it for PSSM by all means, but I just think she needs time.

 

[millitiger]

Did you test because she was symptomatic or because of the history with your other horses?

 

[TheMule]

Given your own complicated history with the disorder, I would sell her now whilst she's happy, going well and with a useful life in front of her.

 

[LEC]

Just sell her…. the test has no evidence and there is no evidence she will develop anything.

She is 4yo who has had no time to settle since being off the transporter.

 

[Rowreach]

Are all the sell her posts and likes from people who have never had to deal with PSSM/MIM?

 

[nutjob]

As a lapsed scientist (Immunologist) I cannot believe that all 7 of yours have tested positive and really have been PSSM Type 2. There's no validated genetic test for PSSM type 2. All they are looking at are the amount of sugars in the muscle. And there are hundreds of environmental factors that could affect this, from time of day the biopsy is taken, to the amount of work that has occurred. I really don't think this test can possibly be conclusive. You'd have to do rigorously controlled tests over a specified time frame to be conclusive. A silly moment where her adrenalin levels shoot up might cause levels to glitch, as might a night in the stables.

Statement from the BEVA: “...given the high prevalence of the genetic variants in the horse population that are tested for, many horses will test positive just by chance – whether or not they have any disease at all.”

FYI, I believe the test used is the none validated equisec genetic test not a muscle biopsy - that's where the Px "diagnosis" comes from.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Sorry, @catembi

As a lapsed scientist (Immunologist) I cannot believe that all 7 of yours have tested positive and really have been PSSM Type 2. There's no validated genetic test for PSSM type 2. All they are looking at are the amount of sugars in the muscle. And there are hundreds of environmental factors that could affect this, from time of day the biopsy is taken, to the amount of work that has occurred. I really don't think this test can possibly be conclusive. You'd have to do rigorously controlled tests over a specified time frame to be conclusive. A silly moment where her adrenalin levels shoot up might cause levels to glitch, as might a night in the stables.

Statement from the BEVA: “...given the high prevalence of the genetic variants in the horse population that are tested for, many horses will test positive just by chance – whether or not they have any disease at all.”

Seriously - she had a 4 yo moment. She didn't understand what she was supposed to do. It sent your adrenalin sky high and she felt the vibes and the tension and it started a vicious circle.

I know as a neurospicy you desperately seek a reason and a validation for things, but sometimes we just over-think things and then our brains get stuck in a loop.

Manage it for PSSM by all means, but I just think she needs time.

This. I have a friend who told me exactly the same and the research done by the company cannot be replicated.

My lad is type one neg, he has tyed up three times in his life but he is managed with rugs, vit e and diet ( when he decides he is eating ) all my various vets over the years say exactly the same.

And one of them got an insulting response when they contacted them for clarification.

She is a 4yrold who has been in her home a short time. She just needs time to settle and take everything in. Other things can be causing the spookyness, the weather is pants, ulcers from the move hormones etc.

Can you get a pro or trainer in to ride her?

 

[Chiffy]

Rowreach, surely it’s impossible to buy 7 horses all with the same affliction?
I don’t usually join in with controversial threads but I am with HeresHoping.
This young horse only just turned 4 and in a new home did not cope with what she was asked to do . Purely a young horse problem and easily rectified with some help from a good instructor.
Even older horses take time to settle in a new home.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Are all the sell her posts and likes from people who have never had to deal with PSSM/MIM?

Mine has possibly type two or a muscle myopathy. He is type one neg due to parents being neg.

Just because she had two explosive spooks a month into owning her does not mean she is PSSM/MIM.

The type 2 hair test is not reliable.

Edited as typed blood instead...friday brain

 

[Bellaboo18]

Are all the sell her posts and likes from people who have never had to deal with PSSM/MIM?

Don't you find it hard to believe 7 out of 7 horses have become unrideable from PSSM?

 

[Snowfilly]

Rowreach, surely it’s impossible to buy 7 horses all with the same affliction?
I don’t usually join in with controversial threads but I am with HeresHoping.
This young horse only just turned 4 and in a new home did not cope with what she was asked to do . Purely a young horse problem and easily rectified with some help from a good instructor.
Even older horses take time to settle in a new home.

The only way I could believe that happening statistically is if most of the horses are related in some way - are you buying the same type from the same families? Do they all share a grandsire or something?

Otherwise, I would say that four year olds spook, horses in a new home go stupid and four year olds in a new home need experienced handling and riding for when they start having their moments. Get a good trainer in, get the horse in regular work and knock the feed right back to basics, and I should think it’ll be fine.

 

[nutjob]

The blood test is not reliable.

Equisec test is a none validated hair test where they extract DNA from the root of the hair. They are the ones who generated the P3, P4, Px etc terminology. Perhaps Catembi could confirm but I doubt a vet has given this diagnosis with either a blood test or muscle biopsy.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I'm another who isn't 100% on the reliability of the MIM test (from what I have read and researched of it). Can't really advise on that front as I don't know enough about it.

I do think though, in the kindest way possible, that you may be expecting too much of this mare if she is young and green and has only been with you for 4 weeks. When I got my last horse (who was a lot older) I didn't ride at all for the first month, just did some groundwork and general bonding, both of us getting into a daily routine etc.

We moved recently and it took ages for them to settle into their new environment - that's with the same owner. New owner + new environment, new herdmates is a massive transition for a horse to go through, especially a young one.

I would cut yourselves both some slack, take the pressure off, just enjoy getting to know her and becoming her friend. She looks like a lovely mare with a kind eye

 

[rextherobber]

Rowreach, surely it’s impossible to buy 7 horses all with the same affliction?
I don’t usually join in with controversial threads but I am with HeresHoping.
This young horse only just turned 4 and in a new home did not cope with what she was asked to do . Purely a young horse problem and easily rectified with some help from a good instructor.
Even older horses take time to settle in a new home.

I don't think Catembi's have all had the same type? I think they've all had muscle myopathies, but not all the same one

 

[Xmasha]

I dont know anything about PSSM, but i seriously find it hard to believe 7 out of 7 horses all have the same condition. From what ive read over time your neddies are all different breeds/types too ? ( might be wrong)

Is it possible your grazing is too rich or lacking in something ? Might be worth getting your soil/ hay etc etc tested ?

 

[gunnergundog]

Be positive! Hard, I know, but just because she has one copy of the gene, it doesn't mean to say that she a) has it now or b) will necessarily succumb in the future.
Either, try and put it out of your head and enjoy the horse you have TODAY or if you find that impossible to do, for whatever reason, then consider selling now to save yourself any future angst.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Equisec test is a none validated hair test where they extract DNA from the root of the hair. They are the ones who generated the P3, P4, Px etc terminology. Perhaps Catembi could confirm but I doubt a vet has given this diagnosis with either a blood test or muscle biopsy.

Sorry, my brain definately is in friday mode. I meant the hair test for type two...will edit it

 

[HeresHoping]

FYI, I believe the test used is the none validated equisec genetic test not a muscle biopsy - that's where the Px "diagnosis" comes from.

So a hair test? Really?

Even if it were a blood test looking at sugars... Well, here's a thing that aptly demonstrates a need for controlled analysis. My sister has cystic fibrosis. With that comes a whole gamut of other complications, including a very specific form of diabetes which doesn't manifest as any of the usual (thirst, dizziness, black outs, etc.) symptoms but could have absolutely dire consequences down the line. She only discovered that she had this when she started using the Zoe app and when she ate certain things her blood sugars went dangerously high. Every blood test she has had in the last two years - and she has them monthly at 3:00 pm on a Friday afternoon- has missed this.

I've come back to say, the more I think about this, the more I find the results of all 7 having a similar Dx from the same company highly suspect. All different breeds?

 

[SEL]

So a hair test? Really?

Even if it were a blood test looking at sugars... Well, here's a thing that aptly demonstrates a need for controlled analysis. My sister has cystic fibrosis. With that comes a whole gamut of other complications, including a very specific form of diabetes which doesn't manifest as any specific symptoms but could have absolutely dire consequences down the line. She only discovered that she had this when she started using the Zoe app and when she ate certain things her blood sugars went dangerously high. Every blood test she has had in the last two years - and she has them monthly at 3:00 pm on a Friday afternoon- has missed this.

It's a genetic test from the hair root - but the variants referred to are nothing to do with sugars.

Catembi - I have purposely not tested either of my cobs for type 2. I tested the one I paid good money for at the vetting for raised CK levels on the basis that if there was a muscle issue it would show up as muscle damage. No elevated CK. He has had weak stifles and a friend has told me this is a MIM symptom - but it is also a common young horse growing symptom and that is how I treat it

My littlest cob has shown raised AST twice and I suspect there is a glycogen disorder of some kind. She gets hard muscles on too much sweet grass. I manage her with less grass, more exercise and the odd scoop of vitamin E.

These tests are not validated and I think you can get overly focused on the results and lose sight of the actual horse. You have a very nice 4yo who with proper nutrition, perhaps some gut support and a good work programme has a lot of potential. But she's a baby and you need to remember that. My bigger cob is now 6 and today is the first time in a group ride I haven't had my hand firmly on the neck strap thinking I'm too old for rodeos.

ETA - said from the position of an owner with a retired type 1 who is incredibly symptomatic and volatile!!